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Removing bolts to create trad paradise


bent

4-May-2007
1:30:59 PM

On 4/05/2007 Garrath wrote:
>Who gave this guy the right to play god. The idea of someone removing bolts
>from an area coz they think it should all be trad creates an ugly precedent

I see your point Garrath,but...
I haven't been to Rosea since the fire so my question is has the fire damaged the integrity of the bolts -
therefore this is a case of "removing unsafe bolts and not replacing" rather than "chopping"
I wouldn't rip out an MDF climbing wall and not replace it with ply- go with progress???

Dodgy_Gear

4-May-2007
1:34:20 PM

On 4/05/2007 simey wrote:
>
>Gritstone is arguably a more interesting climbing arena due to the complete
>no-bolts policy.

You are talking about a whole area/type of rock, this is about a single crag.

>My honest belief is that this is really worthwhile concept that protects and enhances >the adventurous aspect of this great cliff for future generations.

I don't agree with you opinion, but I haven't written any guide books or had my photo in a mag, does this make my opinion less valid? I have however climbed at Rosea.


anthonyk

4-May-2007
1:44:43 PM

well i'm sure mexicans don't need opinions from gringos about what to do with their cliffs but in principle i reckon its a pretty good idea, there arent many trad only areas and if the bolts aren't that valuable clean them up.


Breezy

4-May-2007
1:48:24 PM

Heres an idea;

If you want a trad only / no bolts / only grey beards allowed cliff, why not get off your butt and go explore the gramps for a new wall / crag and designate that as trad only instead of going to an established place and vandalising it (yes thats what it would be) by removing the bolts.

It really doesnt matter wether the removal of bolts would affect or not affect climbs, it is the precedent being set, which as has been said is a very dangerous precendent.


dougal

4-May-2007
1:48:41 PM

No Dodgy I mean this web forum is one means of communication which spills over to others in the community who don't read them. At the pub, in your living room, at the crag, on a bloody belay ledge, etc. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

simey

4-May-2007
2:08:29 PM

On 4/05/2007 Dodgy_Gear wrote:
>You are talking about a whole area/type of rock, this is about a single crag.

Yeah exactly, so it's not such a big call. It's not as though Neil has proposed a no-bolts policy to all of the Grampians.

>I don't agree with you opinion, but I haven't written any guide books or had my photo in a mag, does this make my opinion less valid? I have however climbed at Rosea.

Well yes, not having your photo in a magazine does make your opinion less valid. The rules are that for every photo published, then your opinion is worth the equivalent of two chockstone users. And if you have written a guidebook, then it is worth 20 chockstone users. Now because I have co-written the guides with Glenn, I need to halve that amount, but because we have produced two books then my opinion is still worth 20 times more. Now when it comes to photos published, well you also get bonus points for full page shots, posters, coffee table books and covers. Now I am not quite sure what all that adds up to but I am sure my opinion is at least 50 times more valid than yours.

Anyway, I want you to come up with a good reason why a no-bolts policy wouldn't suit Rosea. Did you actually clip any bolts when you climbed there? What great routes are we going to lose by removing the few bolts that are at this cliff?


wombly

4-May-2007
2:13:21 PM

>Well yes, not having your photo in a magazine does make your opinion less valid. The rules >are that for every photo published your opinion is worth the equivalent of two chockstone users. >And if you have written a guidebook, then it is worth 20 chockstone users. Now because I have >co-written the guides with Glenn, I need to halve that amount, but because we have produced >two books then my opinion is still worth 20 times more. Now when it comes to photos >published, well you also get bonus points for full page shots, posters, coffee table books and >covers. Now I am not quite sure what all that adds up to but I am sure my opinion is at least 50 >times more valid than yours.

It may be the boffin in me, but that's the most i've laughed today...


nmonteith

4-May-2007
4:02:09 PM

Why is this precedent dangerous? There is only a handful of routes with bolts at Rosea. There are NO
sport routes. Wouldn't the act of placing the bolts originally be the act of vandalism?

Simey has hit the nail on the head. There is very little worthwhile that contains bolts Rosea. I challenege
anyone to name one that is worth preserving...


Breezy

4-May-2007
4:06:35 PM

On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Why is this precedent dangerous?

Because once you do it one place whats tro stop it being done elsewhere, there are only a handful of bolts at Ikara and its basically a trad crag, should we go chop all those bolts as well ?

>There is only a handful of routes with
>bolts at Rosea. There are NO
>sport routes.

again there are only a 'handful' of routes at ikara with bolts.

>Wouldn't the act of placing the bolts originally be the
>act of vandalism?

No, not when this was and is the common practice for protecting a route other than with gear.

>
>Simey has hit the nail on the head. There is very little worthwhile that
>contains bolts Rosea. I challenege
>anyone to name one that is worth preserving...

i cant, but i will also never get the chance to if you go chop them :)


Sabu

4-May-2007
4:08:18 PM

well this sounds like a good idea, provided it was based on the ground previously stated
>There is very little worthwhile that contains bolts Rosea.

I believe that a pragmatic approach such as this needs to be considered when creating trad only areas (which are a great idea within reason).

4-May-2007
4:15:17 PM

On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Why is this precedent dangerous? There is only a handful of routes with
>bolts at Rosea. There are NO
>sport routes. Wouldn't the act of placing the bolts originally be the
>act of vandalism?
>
>Simey has hit the nail on the head. There is very little worthwhile that
>contains bolts Rosea. I challenege
>anyone to name one that is worth preserving...

the arete below debutante's first pitch !!!


nmonteith

4-May-2007
4:22:26 PM

What does Ikara and the Blue Moutnains have to do with Mt Rosea?????

Your argument about a prededent that would spread to other crags has been made again and again
when reversed (ie bolts spreading across previously trad only crags). You would be hard pressed to
name a crag in Australia that doesn't have bolts these days. The whole point is to create a 'sanctuary'
of a bolt free area, preferably BEFORE the sport climbers decide to re-evalute the area, or even worse
the re-bolters decide every pitch needs a rap anchor, and every piton needs replacing with a ringbolt.
Its not about ego, its about trying to set aside an area to be a natural climbign area only, befoire its too
late. Rosea is one of Victorias best cliffs, and we have the opportunity now to stop the destruction of
the area into yet 'another' euro style sport crag. As sport climbers always say... "if you don't like it you
can always go climb somehwhere else"

Please don't think this is a trend I want to push onto primarily sport or mixed areas. Rosea is a trad
climbers dream, an area of cracks and corners. It should stay that way, and be glorified because of
these wonderful natural features.

I am quite confident that the small handfull of people who have placed bolts at Rosea would not be
troubled by this bolt removal suggestion. I know most of them quite well, and their ethos certainly
bends towards the world of trad climbing.


nmonteith

4-May-2007
4:25:00 PM

On 4/05/2007 kp wrote:
>the arete below debutante's first pitch !!!

has that even been done?

4-May-2007
4:25:42 PM

does it matter..it looks rad. Best line on the cliff.


nmonteith

4-May-2007
4:27:57 PM

On 4/05/2007 kp wrote:
>does it matter..it looks rad. Best line on the cliff.

:-) It looked impossible to me!


alrob

4-May-2007
4:37:53 PM

On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>On 4/05/2007 One day hero wrote:
>
>No, it was brought about because of the suggested creation of 'protection
>specific' crags (ie sport
>crags!). If Muline/Taipan Right Side turns into a sport crag - why can't
>Rosea turn into a trad crag?
>
does this mean i can add more bolts to spurt wall then? naughty tickle town could do with another bolt, as could not too bad at the top, just to bring it back into the safe sport climbing of nowra style?

i don't see the point? just ignore the bolts if you don't like em. easy! almost as easy as tying your shoelaces!

just make sure people don't place anymore bolts.


nmonteith

4-May-2007
4:45:37 PM

On 4/05/2007 alrob wrote:
> does this mean i can add more bolts to spurt wall then?

yes, its already happening!

> naughty tickle
>town could do with another bolt,

Agreed. I'll get onto it soon hopefully.

>as could not too bad at the top,

It's already got an extra bolt! No need for another...

>just make sure people don't place anymore bolts.

Thats the hard bit! Policing a 'no new bolts' policy is hard when there are bolts in place already. I can
think of a situation recently at Giraween where an out-of-stater established a bolted sport route at a
crag where the access was very iffy and the rangers were not at all happy. The guy placed the new
bolts because he presumed since there was other bolts, then it must be ok.


nmonteith

4-May-2007
5:27:52 PM

According to the guide books there is about 45 bolts at Rosea (if you count every bolt belay as
containing 2 bolts). Many of the bolts are either aid bolts or belay bolts, left over from the days prior to
good trad gear. These are the routes...

Melanoma 114m 9 M4
2 aid bolts
FA Peter McKeand & Michael Stone 1971

Melanoma Direct Start 77m 12 M4
5+ aid bolts
FA Chris Baxter & Clive Parker 1970

St Vitus Dance 87m 17
BR
FFA Andrew Thompson & Keith Lockwood 1972

* The One Night Stand 105m 23
BR belay
FFA Kieran Loughran, Allen Hope Ian Smith 1984

** The Edge Of Reality 103m 23
BR belay
Roland Pauligk, Simon Mentz, Andrew Eastaugh, James Falla 1989

* Curtain Call 137m 21
4 protection BRs
1 BR belay
Chris Baxter, Glenn Tempest, Kevin Lindorff 1977

* Royal Blues 120m 14 M5
BR belay
Keith Lockwood, Chris Baxter 1969

Twitter and Bisted 110m 22
BR
Kevin Lindorff, Glen Tempest 1983

** Coronary Country 102m 26 M2
BR belay
Kim Carrigan & Steve Monks 1986

Shadrach 75m 15
BR belay
John Moore, Bruce Osborne 1966

* Pall Bearer 133m 18
BR
BR belay
Geoff Gledhill & Chris Baxter 1970

* Shady Aid 120m 17
BR
Chris Dewhirst & Michael Stone 1973

* Scarface Direct 38m 23
BR
Simon Mentz 1993

*** Fringe Dweller 121m 21
BR x 2
Chris Piesker & Tim Beaman 1976

** The Prescription 107m 22
BR belay
Norm Booth, Keith Lockwood 1970

** It’ll End In Tears 80m 24
BR x 2
Kim Carrigan 1986

** Debutante Direct Start 24m 20
BR x 2 Rap chain
Chris Dewhirst 1970

** (Unamed) Arete 20m 26
BR x 3
John Viasto 1991

** Angry Young Men 60m 26
BR
Glenn Tempest 1983

*** The Jesus Factor 60m 23
BR belay (retro)
Glenn Tempest 1983

Solitude 124m 21
BR (redundant)
BR belay
Greg Child & Chris Baxter 1976

* Desperado 130m 21
BR belay
Greg Child, Chris Baxter 1976


sticky

4-May-2007
6:01:33 PM

*** Debutante 117m 15
BR x 2 Rap chain
Mike Stone Ian Guild 1966


nmonteith

4-May-2007
6:06:32 PM

That's the same rap chain as the one on Debutante Direct Start. (its a retro chain)

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