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Removing bolts to create trad paradise


sticky

4-May-2007
11:26:20 AM

I'll bite.

I have to say don't understand this holier-than-thou bolt chopping crusade. Overseas areas have been established on the grounds of 'no-bolts' areas and sport. The UK is the obvious example.

That's never been the Australian way. We usually rely on trad gear, and supplement it with bolts where needed. (And on granite, sometimes far less often than needed). The idea of importing some foreign ethic to Australian crags for no discernable reason doesn't ring true. It seems more like someone imposing their ego on the Victorian climbing community. The recent controversy of the North American climbers trying to secretly rip the bolts out of the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre springs to mind. They ended up having the use the bolts they were going to rip, so that ended that little debate.

It's notable that Rosea was picked, where there are a number of classic lines in the lower grades. It always seems to be the lower graded climbs that people talk about ripping bolts out of. I tend not to hear calls for ripping bolts out of grade 24+ routes, and that brings to mind Mikl's previous comments on how hard and easy routes are bolted.

If the bolt is there - leave it there. If it gets dodgy, replace it (if you can). Don't retro. Everyone knows the rules - why mess with them?


nmonteith

4-May-2007
11:28:02 AM

On 4/05/2007 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I think chopping arapiles would be a much more sensible and cronguent proposition.

...and about 1000x harder to do! Rosea only has a handful of routes with bolts. They could chop them all
in a few days.


phil_nev

4-May-2007
11:28:08 AM

On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>...this is a serious proposal and yes, the crag in question is rosea.

And who may I ask has had the idea?


cruze

4-May-2007
11:28:19 AM

So that this may at least be an informed discussion, and having never been to Rosea (and always wanted to) because I moved to Melbourne after the fires, can someone please enlighten me/us on which routes have fixed gear? The quality, ratio to completely trad, etc as well please.

On face value it seems like a strange and unnerving proposition, but it might not be such a bad idea if we all knew what we were talking about.

dalai

4-May-2007
11:42:00 AM

On 4/05/2007 cruze wrote:
>On face value it seems like a strange and unnerving proposition, but it
>might not be such a bad idea if we all knew what we were talking about.

Also possibly starting a precedence with Parks Vic to do so with all cliffs in the Grampians once they see how easy it is to chop entire cliffs...

Pandoras box in the making with consequences far reaching! Beware Neil on doing what you prepose...

One day hero

4-May-2007
11:42:04 AM

On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>...this is a serious proposal and yes, the crag in question is rosea.

So this has been brewing for a while, eh Neil?

I guess your thread about 'the peerless, pure ethics of english grit' was the foreplay before popping the big question of chopping Rosea. Maybe you were hoping for a huge groundswell of support to carry you to glory......how's that all working out for you?

Here's a suggestion; If you chop a bunch of no star routes with the odd bolt on them, you don't end up with three star 'headpointing classics'. Instead you end up with no star routes that have serious fall potential.
You and your mates will climb them, probably give them new names and E grades, write up the daring ascents in your magazine and then.........they will get as many ascents as they are getting now.......f--- all!
Hooray for the triumphant return of bold climbing to Australian shores!


cruze

4-May-2007
11:48:45 AM

What about chopping the fixed gear on Taipan?

I don't reckon I will ever climb any of those routes in perfect style so I wouldn't care. Onsighting Serpentine is out of the question but rap-chopping the wall is well within my abilities.


oweng

4-May-2007
11:52:26 AM

I don't think there is a single route with bolts there that is of any significance? Could be wrong though, after all ive only done Debutant, Requiem and RIP Corner. Mind you Debutant would be one of the more popular multipitch 15s in the Grampians. There is a bolted belay on top of the first pitch. There would want to be some decent natural gear in the vicinity if that belay were removed.

The cliff is covered in pitons. Would these be removed?

I have no problem with all the bolts being removed. That said, none of the routes being erased are mine. Good luck to the person/s who try to do it, will likely create a shitstorm.


shiltz

4-May-2007
11:55:47 AM

I love climbing at Rosea. It is very peaceful, especially since the main tourist track was diverted.
The fixed gear there is mostly 20+ years old I think and in dubious condition. As Tim pointed out, it has some historical interest but not much practical use. There may be some routes that I haven't climbed yet where it is critical. Can anyone quote routes where the fixed gear is critical? I know there are some newer, bolted routes down left of the descent but I haven't climbed these.
I don't know if there is much point ripping out all the old fixed gear but I would really hate to see sport routes appearing there.
It isn't a popular crag from my experience being there. However, I think most climbers who have climbed around the Grampians would have been there at least once.

simey

4-May-2007
11:57:29 AM

I think this is a reasonable proposal that suits the vibe of Rosea.

I have put up a route at Rosea with bolts (Cruising) and I have also placed rap bolts but I would have no problem with them being chopped. I don't think there are any particularly great routes with bolts and if they are chopped and forgotten, then so be it.

Rosea is an exceptional adventure cliff and a no-bolts proposal would add to the aura without serious side-effects.

The only minor nuisance I can think of would be rapping off Debutante Direct Start (a classic grade 19 pitch) although maybe there is a natural anchor that could be utilised instead.


nmonteith

4-May-2007
12:13:38 PM

On 4/05/2007 One day hero wrote:
>So this has been brewing for a while, eh Neil?

...at least 4 years. It all started with this quote from someone else "Here's one from leftfield - I believe
that there should be no new bolts placed at Mt Rosea in the Grampians EVER!". Chocktone 2003

>I guess your thread about 'the peerless, pure ethics of english grit'
>was the foreplay before popping the big question of chopping Rosea.

No, it was brought about because of the suggested creation of 'protection specific' crags (ie sport
crags!). If Muline/Taipan Right Side turns into a sport crag - why can't Rosea turn into a trad crag?

> Maybe
>you were hoping for a huge groundswell of support to carry you to glory......how's
>that all working out for you?

i am suprised you can type with your hand on your dick all the time.

>Here's a suggestion; If you chop a bunch of no star routes with the odd
>bolt on them, you don't end up with three star 'headpointing classics'.

and create a precedent of no more bolting at this cliff. Thats the whole point. Its not about ego, but
about protecting an area from militant future overbolting to make route 'safer' and more 'consumer
friendly'

> You and your mates will climb them, probably give them new names and
>E grades, write up the daring ascents in your magazine and then.........they
>will get as many ascents as they are getting now.......f--- all!

hows your cheek feeling? jeez that was too easy.

Neil - 1
One day hero - 0


BadBrad of the Isles

4-May-2007
12:19:09 PM

My 2c...

I think theres good arguements for haivng specific areas as detailed above so Im all for having designated areas so long as we all agree which areas are which (yep good luck with that are my thoughts as well).

Im however, definitely against renaming climbs that have been done before and had protection changed. Do we rename a route because somebody soloed it? Hell no the moves haven't changed and somebody did it first in whichever style and with that go the naming rights.

If subsequent ascensionist want bragging rights then they can say i did it without clipping x bolt, placing x piece at the crux, or after it was retrodebolted or i soloed it and people can spank over that as they wish. The fact still remains someone climbed it first, they get the naming rights.

Brad.

Bob Saki

4-May-2007
12:31:38 PM

It's an interesting proposal Neil and on the surface seems a worthy idea.

I don't believe leaving bolts for history's sake and the like should matter a tap, especially if they are unnecessary due to adequate natural pro. Even if there is not a lot of egotism goes into history just so A can say I put the bolts in that etc....

And on the other hand if there is no adequate pro and long run outs it will make the area a place for the bold.

I have never climbed at Rosea and would very much like to one day, and there is something to be said for taking a cliff as you find it. Even if I may be able to do a route with bolts but don't have the head or the strength/composure to do it without the bolts so be it.

Maybe I just don't know enough about it all but I think we can afford to have one area just like this in an area as large as the Gramps.

Naturally it will cause some conjecture especially among regular visitors who may like the routes the way they are but on the whole I think it's a noble idea and adds to the diversity that seems to be Australian climbing.


dougal

4-May-2007
12:37:20 PM

I'm all for developing crags which remain an either/or. Sport and trad are completely different experiences. It shows a bit of maturity and restraint.

Q: Why the desire to have routes chopped all at once? If the crag was left 'as is' with no alteration then wont the fixed gear continue to degrade? If no further bolted routes are est. and old routes not retroed then as time goes on it'll become tradder (new word TM) without the overt, often impatient intervention and the possible backlash/rebolting/chopping wars. Or wont that happen? Just ideas.

Dodgy_Gear

4-May-2007
12:42:40 PM

I think the idea is a load of puritanical bullshit, and you accuse ODH of having his hand on it! Thinking that you can gage the local climbing communities opinion on this by posting here is also misguided, numerous climbers do not post or view this site for reasons ranging from not being involved with the internet culture to not taking this site seriously (this topic is a good example of why).
If however you or your friend were to do this you would indeed be setting a dangerous precedent for myself or others to chop routes/areas as we see fit.

widewetandslippery

4-May-2007
1:02:23 PM

Neil wrote: ...and about 1000x harder to do! Rosea only has a handful of routes with bolts. They could chop them all
in a few days.

So ethics come down to convenience?


dougal

4-May-2007
1:03:17 PM

"...Thinking that you can gage the local climbing communities opinion on this by posting here is also misguided."

Irony?

Thankyou for allowing the community to gauge your opinion. And it works in other ways doesn't it? Even if you don't read/post your mate/s might. Word gets around other ways..

"..If however you or your friend were to do this you would indeed be setting a dangerous precedent for myself or others to chop routes/areas as we see fit."

Good point so, Neil why the urgency? It could backfire.

simey

4-May-2007
1:06:23 PM

Removing current bolts (as opposed to leaving them in) sets the tone for climbing at Rosea in the future. I actually don't mind the old relics from aid climbing days, but rap-placed bolts (such as those I have placed) are not going to fade away and the context of them seems out of place for an adventurous cliff.

Climbing is all about playing to various rules and ethics to get the most out of the experience.

Gritstone is arguably a more interesting climbing arena due to the complete no-bolts policy.

My honest belief is that this is really worthwhile concept that protects and enhances the adventurous aspect of this great cliff for future generations.

Dodgy_Gear

4-May-2007
1:07:20 PM

On 4/05/2007 dougal wrote:
>
>Thankyou for allowing the community to gauge your opinion.

I think you mean "this" community? This community is made up of some climbers who use the internet.

simey

4-May-2007
1:18:33 PM

If someone can actually write about climbs they have done at Rosea which had bolts in them and in which their potential removal would become a great loss to climbing, then I would be interested to know.

This is not a concept I would support at many other cliffs, although Frenchmans Cap would be an obvious candidate.

There are 203 messages in this topic.