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Removing bolts to create trad paradise


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-May-2007
8:58:02 AM

On 9/05/2007 drdeviousii wrote:
>Maybe climbingjac should ask the question a few more times.
I can understand the confusion, especially when you look at the dates involved on certain posts. I also suspect that there are more than one person who discussed this option before starting the thread!

dalai wrote
(snip etc)
>By the way, my friend was wondering how someone you know went in Spain ;-)
Like the humour!


RJC

9-May-2007
1:59:18 PM

I'd be inclined to just leave it as it is, accept and embrace what's already been done, move on, and just agree on a future poilicy and actively maintain it. Hopefully. But with no governing body as such...what is the outcome of not playing by the rules?! This has to be clear. The number of people that will come online and argue this and that is one thing. The number of people that will do something or anything about it is another. We are fundamentally lazy and driven by peer pressure and don't seek out conflict! We just want to go climbing! Those that are not, and shout the loudest, generally get what they want. That's the way of the world. We shouldn't be getting all pompous and elitist about it, striking ascent records out etc. That is censorship. It's like you're holding up some shining torch to show us dumbf*cks the way. Do you think ethics are a new thing?! Integrity is nothing new. Ditto ignorance. We are all philosophers, just that many of us don't think about it...perhaps our kids will be contemplating the same with regard to one of your areas of development?! But it's pretty obvious that you've tried to be inflamatory.

I think Pembroke is a good example. Yes there is fixed gear - threads, pegs etc. but I think there is a subtle difference between this and bolts. It's like arguing the difference between right and wrong with a child. Clipping manky pegs is good for the soul! And if said fixed gear deteriorates then the route is climbed without it. And if said route is more dangerous then so be it. And if it doesn't get climbed because you are a pussy then so what? Get over it. And if the world looses a route - big deal. There are plenty of them out there already. I think it all comes down to asking ourselves why we actually climb in the first place? In the context of our arena, it's pretty obvious it's a transient and selfish activity - these rocks will still be here for a while, so lets just leave them as we find them, as best we can. Convenience chokes all the life out of us as it is.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-May-2007
2:09:56 PM

Well said RJC.

I am for leaving it as is. ie predominantly trad along with some aid still to be freed, that involves the odd bolt/pin for sane protection in the eyes of the 1st ascentionist/s.


nmonteith

9-May-2007
3:31:02 PM

I have been swayed towards the 'leave it be' attitude - with a preference for NO rebolting, or anchor
additions. Let the old bolts rust, and leave it to the next generation to suck it up and climb the routes
without them.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-May-2007
4:13:27 PM


Macciza

9-May-2007
5:07:08 PM

On 9/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>I have been swayed towards the 'leave it be' attitude - with a preference
>for NO rebolting, or anchor
>additions. Let the old bolts rust, and leave it to the next generation
>to suck it up and climb the routes
>without them.

Like I said a while back - but let the current generation have a go as well. I'm sure I could have fun
snapping some old aid bolts and I have been known to free an odd aid route or two as well . . .


garbie

9-May-2007
5:50:53 PM

On 9/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>I have been swayed towards the 'leave it be' attitude - with a preference
>for NO rebolting, or anchor
>additions. Let the old bolts rust, and leave it to the next generation
>to suck it up and climb the routes
>without them.

Its a great thread, with elements of Trad v Sport and "do you put up routes for yourself or for others" debates. I was also thinking the "let it be" way is best, with the crag eventually losing fixed gear to the forces of nature.

But in the meantime? How do you make a decision about whether a rusty bolt or peg is going to hold a fall? Placements at least you can gauge the shape/quality of the rock & make you own decision about whether to keep going, but nothing short of an engineering test of fixed gear is going to tell you what forces it will withstand. So clipping or rapping off that gear will become a bit of a lottery in 10 or 20 years. In one way I like the uncertainty, but in another way, it seems crazy. Maybe best to take it out? Or replace it?

chalkischeap

9-May-2007
8:45:37 PM

Letting bolts rust out is a really really bad idea.

It's so bad that I don't know where to begin.

..sighs...shakes head.....kicks the cat....

climbingjac

9-May-2007
9:27:10 PM

On 8/05/2007 dalai wrote:
> it's common practice for people now in Australia to talk about themselves as a >seperate person in conversation.

Ah... cheers for the clarification

>By the way, my friend was wondering how someone you know went in Spain

Someone I know froze to death when it hailed and snowed. Most unseasonal!

simey

9-May-2007
10:47:55 PM

On 9/05/2007 chalkischeap wrote:
>Letting bolts rust out is a really really bad idea.

There aren't too many routes at Rosea with bolts in the first place and they rarely (if ever) get repeated. I suspect the climbers that do tackle these more obscure routes will have the nous to deal with the situation.

gfdonc

10-May-2007
10:47:04 AM

Developing a policy of not replacing bolts when they need replacing is just silly.

Is "Safer Cliffs Vic" changing its mandate? "Somewhat Slightly Less Hazardous If We Feel Inclined Cliffs Vic"?

The bolt belay at the end of p1 of Debutante is an interesting example. Last I recall they're in good nick, perhaps in 5-10 years they'll need replacing. Alternatively it is possible to belay from trad gear at this stance.

I think the sentiment behind this thread is about not establishing "sport" routes at Rosea. On that perhaps we agree.


Breezy

10-May-2007
10:52:15 AM

On 10/05/2007 gfdonc wrote:
>I think the sentiment behind this thread is about not establishing "sport"
>routes at Rosea. On that perhaps we agree.

agree

:)


nmonteith

10-May-2007
11:12:27 AM

On 10/05/2007 gfdonc wrote:
>Developing a policy of not replacing bolts when they need replacing is
>just silly.
>
>Is "Safer Cliffs Vic" changing its mandate? "Somewhat Slightly Less Hazardous
>If We Feel Inclined Cliffs Vic"?

Since SCV just cops flak from every side I can't be assed making any sort of mandate. The intention
of SCV is to replace old bolts that get frequent use. Thsi doesn't appear to be the case at Rosea. Our
current policy is to be hands off Mt Rosea and watch the bolts rust out since most would like the place
to be a trad bastian. As soon as you start rebolting, then it opens the doors to new rap anchors, new
bolts to replace pitons ect (as requested by staff from Parks Vic).

>The bolt belay at the end of p1 of Debutante is an interesting example.
> Last I recall they're in good nick, perhaps in 5-10 years they'll need
>replacing. Alternatively it is possible to belay from trad gear at this
>stance.

They are retorbolts anyway. This is the worst example of bolt uglyness at Rosea, and would certainly
be the first to go in any sort of bolt exorcism.

>I think the sentiment behind this thread is about not establishing "sport"
>routes at Rosea. On that perhaps we agree.

agree! (although the existance of WIP sport route on the far left side has dampened this aim already)


Macciza

10-May-2007
12:26:07 PM

On 9/05/2007 chalkischeap wrote:
>Letting bolts rust out is a really really bad idea.
>
Maybe we should treat them with rustconvertor . . . ;-}

kieranl

10-May-2007
12:51:48 PM

The bolts at top of first pitch of debutante were placed (don't know who by) so people could abseil off after doing Debutante Direct start. There used to be a large tree on the ledge but it fell off after heavy snowfall about 1984, taking all of the dirt on the ledge with it. It's sobering to look at this ledge and see how little attachment the tree had to the cliff.


dougal

10-May-2007
3:17:00 PM

On 10/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>agree! (although the existance of WIP sport route on the far left side
>has dampened this aim already)

C'mon people! Decide. I climbed Rosea 20 years ago. There are plenty of folks who understand that preserving trad areas is crucial to maintaining the great diversity and depth of experience now available in climbing.

Poll it

Rosea to be declared trad - existing gear to be left insitu - yes or no. It happens in other places.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-May-2007
3:24:15 PM

On 10/05/2007 gfdonc wrote:
>I think the sentiment behind this thread is about not establishing "sport"
>routes at Rosea. On that perhaps we agree.

I agree also.


nmonteith

10-May-2007
3:30:14 PM

Unfortunately a poll would be voted on by climbers who have never been to the place, and probably never
will. Don't underestimate the level of closet-nsw sport climbers on these fourms. :-)

Ronny

10-May-2007
3:32:35 PM

Or wanna-be NSW sport climbers like me... ;)


garbie

10-May-2007
9:08:28 PM

If you dont like any sort of democracy, why raise the issue in the first place? If you just want crusty beard stroker locals' opinions, stick a clipboard up at the crag.... ;)

There are 203 messages in this topic.