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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 8 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 203
Author
Removing bolts to create trad paradise

BigMike
7-May-2007
11:43:41 PM
On 7/05/2007 simey wrote:
>I reckon this is one of the best discussions that has been on Chockstone
>for a while.

Certainly in terms of passion and number of posts.

But here's a question. Is anyone prepared to put up their hand and say, "the comments on this thread have caused me to change my opinion. I used to think X but I'm coming around to Y"??

Or is the sound of manic typing also the sound of prejudices being further entrenched?


james
8-May-2007
6:22:06 AM
chipping gear placements is totally contrived, even if its utilising old bolt holes. Think about how crazy it would be for the Grampians so-called shining-light-of-trad-crag to have a bunch of chipped gear placements. It would be laughable at best, & just render the whole concept of trad-only a complete load of bollocks.

as I said earlier, the idea of a no-bolt crag is great, but Rosea is not the appropriate place. JamesMc suggested a few other crags that don't have bolts - why can't these remain as the Gramps no-bolt areas?
simey
8-May-2007
9:00:09 AM
On 8/05/2007 james wrote:
>as I said earlier, the idea of a no-bolt crag is great, but Rosea is not the appropriate place. JamesMc suggested a few other crags that don't have bolts - why can't these remain as the Gramps no-bolt areas?

It's not about creating a no-bolt crag, it's about making Rosea a no-bolt crag. It's incredible that such a major cliff with such amazingly good routes has so few bolts. It's about preserving this unique quality of Rosea.

Having explored the cliff and rap-inspected numerous possibilities I am aware of a number of new routes that could be established. Many would need bolts, yet such routes are not likely to become classics of the crag. New bolted routes appearing at Rosea will detract from the wilderness feeling and self-reliance that has been a significant part of climbing there.

I don't actually have a problem with Baxter's old aid climbing forays and I sympathise with Kieran given the circumstances in which he established his routes. My main concern is the double-standard created if it is argued that existing bolts should stay and no new bolts be added. It comes across as, 'It was okay for us to place bolts and leave them in, but it is not acceptable for anyone else'.



Hawkman
8-May-2007
9:23:56 AM
On 8/05/2007 simey wrote:
> My main concern is the double-standard created if it is argued
>that existing bolts should stay and no new bolts be added. It comes across
>as, 'It was okay for us to place bolts and leave them in, but it is not
>acceptable for anyone else'.

No it doesn't. it just says the community has moved on and the crag is now a no new bolt zone. I can see the logic of a ban on new bolts but cannot understand the need to go back an remove existing ones.

nmonteith
8-May-2007
9:29:04 AM
jeez i'm keen to get back to Rosea.... all this talk has got me hot to trot.
gfdonc
8-May-2007
9:59:20 AM
Yep, me too - I'm hanging out to get back there and tick some of the harder multipitch that were always a bit daunting. When is it going to reopen?
One Day Hero
8-May-2007
11:11:20 AM
On 4/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>No, it was brought about because of the suggested creation of 'protection
>specific' crags (ie sport
>crags!). If Muline/Taipan Right Side turns into a sport crag - why can't
>Rosea turn into a trad crag?

Why would you want to turn these places into sport crags? Is that the agenda? Give the traddies a bolt free Rosea as payoff for sportifying a bunch of really nice mixed routes?

I don't see pulling the bolts out of worthless routes as a bad thing, but do it on a route by route basis not cliff by cliff. The whole tone of this thing seems very fundamentalist, which is what bothers me.

I think replacing and realigning the bolts on Mr. Josua was a good effort, ta for that, but retroing next to the good gear placements would be a shame. There is a place in the world for mixed bolt and trad routes!

nmonteith
8-May-2007
11:21:45 AM
On 8/05/2007 One Day Hero wrote:
>Why would you want to turn these places into sport crags?

That was the suggestion by several climbers (including skip-skip) in the retro-naming/bolting topic. On
many occasions people have suggested that Victoria is in the dark ages because of our 'mixed'
climbing attitude.

>Is that the
>agenda? Give the traddies a bolt free Rosea as payoff for sportifying a
>bunch of really nice mixed routes?

No, i was reversing the argument to create 'sport' crags from previously mixed crags. It was not about
a pay-off. If people went back through some very old posts on this website they would find i have
suggested creating trad only areas previously (ie at the Fortress). It is not a new idea.

>I don't see pulling the bolts out of worthless routes as a bad thing,
>but do it on a route by route basis not cliff by cliff. The whole tone
>of this thing seems very fundamentalist, which is what bothers me.

Agreed. My original post was to stir the pot, and see how the extreme end of this argument would get
a reaction. As usual there is wildly conflicting suggestions. It does seem that most people in favour of
keeping the bolts have never climbed at Rosea though...

>I think replacing and realigning the bolts on Mr. Josua was a good effort,
>ta for that, but retroing next to the good gear placements would be a shame.
>There is a place in the world for mixed bolt and trad routes!

I agree about keeping the mixed route ethic alive on Taipan. It has been suggested (offline) that i could
have created the same anchors on Mr Josh by fixing wires and slings. An interesting thought.... what
would people think about doing that instead?
One Day Hero
8-May-2007
11:35:59 AM
On 7/05/2007 ithomas wrote:
I think it would be totally appropriate for Rosea,
>Ikara, Frog Buttress, Frew's Flutes and a small number of other iconic
>cliffs to remain totally boltless as a reminder of what was and as inspiration
>for what can be. Is that too much to ask in a xsport mad world?

I would be pretty disappointed if The Squealing had it's bolts removed. My personal preference would be for removing unused or redundent bolts (dud routes or bolts next to good gear placements) rather than chopping excellent routes which need bolts for protection. Perhaps instead of bolt-free crags, there could be a push for shit-route-free-zones?

nmonteith
8-May-2007
11:45:04 AM
On 8/05/2007 One Day Hero wrote:
>Perhaps instead of bolt-free
>crags, there could be a push for shit-route-free-zones?

Start a new topic on that one! A bit more subjective though...

tnd
8-May-2007
11:54:30 AM
On 8/05/2007 shawkshaw wrote:
>On 8/05/2007 simey wrote:
>> My main concern is the double-standard created if it is argued
>>that existing bolts should stay and no new bolts be added. It comes across
>>as, 'It was okay for us to place bolts and leave them in, but it is not
>>acceptable for anyone else'.
>
>No it doesn't. it just says the community has moved on and the crag is
>now a no new bolt zone. I can see the logic of a ban on new bolts but cannot
>understand the need to go back an remove existing ones.

I agree Steve. I haven't been to Rosea but I am a bit suss about wholesale chopping being applied anywhere.

Good to see the usual passion though!

oweng
8-May-2007
11:58:38 AM
I like the idea of keeping a major crag in the Grampians as a bastion of 'trad' climbing. There is no shortage of crags that are ideally suited to installing sports routes.

In my mind, climbing at Rosea is all about long committing routes in a traditional Australian style. Carrot bolts were installed from very early in the piece in Victoria. They were placed on lead using a hand drill, when there was no other gear option available.

Im wondering if a voluntary ban on power drills and abseil bolting at Rosea would be some sort of compromise. This would justify the retention of the existing bolted routes (im assuming almost all of these bolts would have been placed on lead).

It would also allow competent leaders to establish bold onsight climbs on a great cliff. 20 to 30 minutes of bashing on lead to place each bolt would keep the number of bolts to a bare minimum.

Of course, it would mean some dodgy bolts would get placed. Perhaps an exception to the 'no abseil bolting' rule could be the replacement of dodgy bolts with stainless steel glue in 'carrots'.

Any thoughts?

Doug
8-May-2007
12:42:31 PM
Im wondering if a voluntary ban on power drills and abseil bolting at Rosea would be some sort of compromise. This would justify the retention of the existing bolted routes (im assuming almost all of these bolts would have been placed on lead).
This is a big assumption, Owen. I think that a lot of the old carrots, especially on relatively steep ground, were placed either on abseil, by traversing in, or by some other devious means.
The idea of a bolt-free crag is an interesting one but in regards to Rosea I am more inclined towards the notion of bolts well but sparsely-placed, leaving them in place where they make a climb viable at the grade, and finally re-bolting where a route has been opened but the original bolting job was crap or the bolts have been in place so long that they are dubious at best.

The good Dr
8-May-2007
12:48:09 PM
I think people are getting a little confused. Trad climbing does not actually mean 'no fixed gear'.

The distinction smacks of the us and them arguments coated with moral relativism and historic revisionism - say that fast with a mouth full of weaties. The whole idea of bolt free crags seems to be the importation of an overseas ethic (eg grit). By the way, the sandstone towers in Eastern Europe have massive ring bolts for belay stations and occasionally on the routes, whilst wires and cams would just pull through the very soft rock which is why the knotted slings.

I also note that many people seem to think that bolts mean 'Euro'. Seems that they have not climbed much in Europe. Yes there are many fully bolted crags in countries such as France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland etc, but there are a massive amount of routes that require extensive gear placement and some also have a little fixed gear, which is apparently the Australian Tradition, and are exceptional.

Having done many routes at Rosea over the last couple of decades I like the crag as is, and the commitment anyone wants to make establishing a new route there is massive. I have clipped some of the fixed gear - PS Fringe Dweller is a pretty good route! Replace the tat and mank as required, and if the old routes do not get done the gear will eventually corrode away. Ripping out all of the fixed gear does not make it a Trad Paradise, as it is already one.

nmonteith
8-May-2007
12:51:38 PM
Great post Good Dr...

oweng
8-May-2007
12:59:53 PM
On 8/05/2007 Doug Bruce wrote:
(im assuming almost all of these bolts would have
been placed on lead).

>This is a big assumption, Owen. I think that a lot of the old carrots,
>especially on relatively steep ground, were placed either on abseil, by
>traversing in, or by some other devious means.
>The idea of a bolt-free crag is an interesting one but in regards to Rosea
>I am more inclined towards the notion of bolts well but sparsely-placed,
>leaving them in place where they make a climb viable at the grade, and
>finally re-bolting where a route has been opened but the original bolting
>job was crap or the bolts have been in place so long that they are dubious
>at best.

Gday Doug. Your probably right about some dubious methods being used in the past. I guess I was trying to suggest a means to 1) justify retaining the existing bolted routes 2) not discourage the putting up of big routes with the odd bolt where needed and 3) not open the door for wholesale bolting (i.e sportsroutes).

gfdonc
8-May-2007
1:57:02 PM
On 8/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Great post Good Dr...

Yes you have my backing as well.
climbingjac
8-May-2007
9:32:49 PM
On 5/05/2007 Dom wrote:
>Neil - If it really was someone else suggesting that Rosea be cleaned then
>perhaps you could encourage this person to come forward.
>
>
>Its time to hear from this friend of yours Neil. Maybe a few choice words
>from the man of the moment could turn the tide for you and simey :)
>

BUMP

Who is this person with this idea so wonderful that they are not brave enough to put their name to it?
dalai
8-May-2007
11:05:09 PM
On 8/05/2007 climbingjac wrote:

>Who is this person with this idea so wonderful that they are not brave
>enough to put their name to it?

Since you moved overseas, it's common practice for people now in Australia to talk about themselves as a seperate person in conversation. Note Neil's 'someone' and Skip-skip's 'friend' in his Gigamesh topic...

By the way, my friend was wondering how someone you know went in Spain ;-)
drdeviousii
9-May-2007
12:32:05 AM
On 8/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Agreed. My original post was to stir the pot, and see how the extreme
>end of this argument would get
>a reaction.

How much fking clearer does this need to be? Maybe climbingjac should ask the question a few more times.


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There are 203 messages in this topic.

 

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