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Removing bolts to create trad paradise


westie

7-May-2007
3:00:12 PM

On 3/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
sadly there is a scattering of bolted routes
>amoungst the many glorious
>trad routes. He is proposing the removal of any previously placed bolts
>to create a 'bolt free zone'

Neil,
I mostly climb trad and prefer the asthetics of it but really, there are plenty or trad climbs out there and unclimbed / un-explored areas. This really seems like an overreaction.

If it can be climbed, at a similar grade, without the bolts then by all means remove unnessecary bolts. To chop all bolts regardless seems to smack of philosophy and direspect to the larger climbing fraternity.

Its subjects like this that make you marvel at how much niches of the population seek further exclusion of others, particularly in light of the growth of rockclimbing as a sport in recent years. The more popular it becomes the further the 'purists' withdraw.

I do like the idea of a completely bolt free crag but this is the wrong way to go.


muki

7-May-2007
3:08:44 PM

Breezy, you are ok with using the pin scar for a nut or small cam! so why not use the modified bolt
hole for a nut placement?
Is a pin scar so drasticly different to a bolt hole?I am not chipping a climbing hold, and would never do
that( slightly pissed off with you for even suggesting that!) the resultant product would take a nut, not a
finger, and would be only slightly different from the original hole (most of the modification would be on
the inside)

Neil, The hole is 1/4 inch, and the resulting internal taper to take the nut would be smaller than that, so
where does the Large slot you are talking about come from?

Kieren, you are missing the point, the hole is already there! after a small modification it becomes a nut
placement, not a bolt hole, not patched bolt hole, but a gear placement rather than a bolt, the rock has
already been altered hasn't it!

all I am sugesting is an option that is a solution to all the current problems , but I might be mistaken, It
might be that argument and disention about every aspect and issue is really what every body here
really wants, a chance to say "you are wrong" , "I am right" and so around it goes with nothing ever
getting done about anything! hey I don't care either way just trying to show you all a valid option thats
all.
the bomb


nmonteith

7-May-2007
3:12:52 PM

It woudl be cool if you could make and example and post some photos of it Bomber. I am intrigued that it
would work with a quarter inch hole....


Breezy

7-May-2007
3:16:10 PM

On 7/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>Breezy, you are ok with using the pin scar for a nut or small cam! so why
>not use the modified bolt
>hole for a nut placement?

Because like i said the pin scar damage is done whilst pacing the pin and during its use. It is not placed then pulled out then modified.

>Is a pin scar so drasticly different to a bolt hole?I am not chipping
>a climbing hold, and would never do
>that( slightly pissed off with you for even suggesting that!) the resultant
>product would take a nut, not a
>finger, and would be only slightly different from the original hole (most
>of the modification would be on
>the inside)

Wasnt suggesting at all that you would chip a hold. Dont kow how you got that from what i said.
I was just saying manufacturing is manufacturing wether it be a hold or a bolt hole made into a nut placement.

Just outta interest how can you say it would only take a nut not a finger ? Everyopne has different finger sizes for starters
secondly i have seen many people 'crimp' the indoor bolt hole edges and holds outside smaller than a bolt hole edge, so why would you hole be any different ?


muki

7-May-2007
4:15:31 PM

On 7/05/2007 Breezy wrote:
>Because like i said the pin scar damage is done whilst pacing the pin
>and during its use. It is not placed then pulled out then modified.

Sorry my understanding of pitons is that you bang em in "placed" then ripp em out "pulled out" then as
you said "able to use the scar as a hold or plug a cam in the scar" does that mean the rock has been
"modified"

>Wasnt suggesting at all that you would chip a hold. Dont kow how you got
>that from what i said.

from the previous post:> "while your at it, you may as well chip some holds"

>I was just saying manufacturing is manufacturing wether it be a hold or
>a bolt hole made into a nut placement.

is that similar to the manufacturing result of using pitons? >able to use the scar as a HOLD or plug a
CAM in the SCAR!!!

>Just outta interest how can you say it would only take a nut not a finger
>? Everyopne has different finger sizes for starters
>secondly i have seen many people 'crimp' the indoor bolt hole edges and
>holds outside smaller than a bolt hole edge, so why would you hole be any
>different ?

because the original bolt placement would have a clipping stance to enable a hanger plate to be put
onto the bolt! people would rather hold this than the edge of an old bolt hole ,especially if it's the hole
that they are trying to get a nut into, after the nut has been placed the hole is no longer able to be used
by those that can climb gym walls using the bolt holes alone! as now the wire is in the way of that
fantastic 3mm edge.
C,mon Cameron look at what you're saying! its OK to create holds and placements with an old piton
hole!, but it's not OK to create a placement with an old bolt hole.
they are both steel pins used as protection on a climb! they are both placed by climbers because there
was no other choice! they are both permanent holes in the rock! both are artificicial holes created by
humans! ...do I need to continue or are you starting to open your eyes to your own hypocracy!


Dom

7-May-2007
5:33:41 PM

Can you tell us how easily these bolt holes can be modified?


wombly

7-May-2007
6:07:29 PM

I too am intruigued about the possiblity of replacing a bolt with a manufactured small nut placement, is this missing the point of why we are trying to aviod bolts in the first place? i.e. that you are climbing an essentially unmodified piece of rock? i appreciate the irony of calling a bit of rock that has had a bolt placed then removed unmofided, but for climbing purposes it is.

On the other hand, if you just want to pull the bolts and not go to the length of chipping a placement, there is a piece of gear designed to be placed into a drilled hole and works somewhat on the principle of a cam - called the removable bolt if i remember rightly.
I haven't removed carrots, so this is obviously hopothetical, but would this work? If you are already purchasing a rack of cams and what not, is it too much to expect people to shell out more for a "pure" cliff?


muki

7-May-2007
6:56:02 PM

Yes the removable bolt is another way of dealing with the situation, very specific gear tho,the holes
would have to be re-drilled to ensure depth and quality of internal surfaces, and you might need more
than one for a climb that has had multiple bolts removed, it would then be a true trad paradise , no climbs
would be lost and everyone could stop whining!
the only draw back with them is you have to mark the spot where the hole is some how, with a spot of
paint, or maybe a replaceable plug that had a bright telltale atached to it to indicate the holes location.


six-sevens

7-May-2007
7:01:57 PM

Out of pure curiosity how about a vote to see where we are leading?


six-sevens

7-May-2007
7:05:36 PM

Also all this is good, but can ethics really be changed retrospectively?
In the climbing world isn't the FA gospel.. because without this person, their motivation and insight we wouldn't actually have any climbs in the firstplace.

Fish Boy

7-May-2007
7:29:07 PM

Ross Hinkley (I think) from this site asked a similar question about manufacturing holds in his backyard....posted about 2 years ago.

simey

7-May-2007
8:29:13 PM

Bomber's idea of removing the bolts but utilising the holes is an interesting compromise, but it misses the crux of the issue.

In my opinion the ethics behind drilling a hole is similar to chipping a hold. In both instances we are physically altering the rock to suit our needs and make it more climbable.

Therefore drilling holes and using special gadgets (instead of bolts) to climb routes at Rosea isn't respecting the natural challenge of the rock either.

That is why I would be in favour of retaining pegs at Rosea. Pegs utilise natural weaknesses. Bolts don't.

kieranl

7-May-2007
9:05:12 PM

Totally agree with Simey on the drilled hole issue. A drilled hole is a drilled hole is a drilled hole... Doesn't matter what you put into it.

kieranl

7-May-2007
9:18:39 PM

I was going to say that Neil presented this proposition in a provocative way but I'm actually glad that he did (regardless of whether he meant it to be provocative (how's that for being a middle-class fence-mender)).
It forced me to give an personal reaction. And I treasure my Rosea climbs, whether new routes (several), first free ascents (1) or repeats. I have mostly been accompanied by people who have been important in my life apart from the climb.
I am not a dispassionate observer on this issue and don't pretend to be. It's quite liberating to be able to say that.

chalkischeap

7-May-2007
9:46:39 PM

There is a lot of talk on here about turning Victorian cliffs into sport zone / trad zone sectors.

The mixed gear approach (i.e. don’t bolt cracks) just happens to work well on a lot of Victorian cliffs.

Other local traditions are less welcome:
1. crap fixed gear
2. bash-in carrot bolts
3. respecting the wishes of the first ascentionist, even if he has left a mess behind in his haste to claim another line

rod

7-May-2007
10:04:58 PM

On 7/05/2007 Fish Boy wrote:
>Ross Hinkley (I think) from this site asked a similar question about manufacturing
>holds in his backyard....posted about 2 years ago.

that thread is called chipping pro????

ENP environmental nut placement: http://www.compasswest.co.uk/spanishclimbing/ENP/enp.html

slightly different tangent but perhaps relevant to the bolt proliferation and rosea issues.

these issues are faced regularly, george in west oz and i have been batting this to and fro during recent weeks as i started considering future development of a virgin low altitude granite site i stumbled across here in CH recently.


muki

7-May-2007
10:24:23 PM

Simey, I'm not for or against, I'm just putting forward some Ideas that would be a compromise to all
the backwards and forwards debate that is going nowhere with both camps not willing to give an inch, I
am in neither camp and think that any climb is OK if the movement/rock/aspect/protection are all
good, wether it be on bolts, on trad, or a mix of both! I think that the aproach gerry narcissist uses by
just chopping stuff that has been fine for years is close to religious ferver, and would hate for this to
escalate to the point that all the people that hate the way that some cliffs have been bolted would then
go and chop it all down! like gerry did.
There are those in the climbing community that hate the way some of the climbs on Taipan are not
that well equipt while we have others that want to create Zoning for areas,(more narcissism)No bolts/
No trad, or trad only and sport only, this is crazy! if you want to climb it then you will!, if you don't then
you won't, if its a climb and there are not enough bolts for you, WALK AWAY, DON'T RETRO BOLT.
all this talk of ruining the vibe and having their personal experience ruined by seeing somthing they
did'nt approve off is BOLLOCKS, you should all just sit back and hear yourselves moan and complain!
You all have some of the best rock in THE WORLD to play on and your not happy?
just apreciate what a beautifull place we have as our personal playground! try and respect it! get along!
we are all climbers! get over this sport versus trad versus boulder versus aid versus mountaineer shit
and get along.
WE are ALL climbers, respect that, and each other, AND THE ROCK!!!!!!


dave h.

7-May-2007
11:12:49 PM

I nominate Bomber Pro as Archbishop of the Brotherhood of Common Sense.


BigMike

7-May-2007
11:17:45 PM

On 7/05/2007 dave h. wrote:
>I nominate Bomber Pro as Archbishop of the Brotherhood of Common Sense.

Amen!

simey

7-May-2007
11:33:53 PM

I reckon this is one of the best discussions that has been on Chockstone for a while. I am not usually so extremist and am usually in favour of well-equipped routes that are accessible to the majority of climbers. I would have a very different perspective on this subject if I thought there was one mega-classic at Rosea (particularly in the lower grades) that would be compromised by the removal of bolts.

Frequently I have been in favour of seeing the odd bolt added to a route (particularly rap-inspected routes, or easier routes with suss gear). It should be noted that I have retro-bolted a number of routes at Arapiles.

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