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Removing bolts to create trad paradise

lacto

6-May-2007
10:57:43 PM

if all the bolts were to be removed what would the legal liability be of those people who actually did the removal or encouraged the removal if somebody went up one of the climbs and had a serious accident where a bolt had been cut. I can remember someone taking a fairly serious fall where a bolt had been chopped because there were a couple of good rp placements where the bolt had been but the climbers didn't possess rps as they were realatively new and were expecting to find the bolt. The first time I climbed at rosea was with a leader who use 5 or 6 pitons and some refined engine nuts on rope slings as well as using a laid "millers number four rope" . that was the way the climb was put up but i doubt whether anyone in their right mind would suggest that is how the climb should be done now. However i still have the guide book from the 70's . Guide books since then will mention bolts and surely if bolts were to be cut then it would have to be with a guarantee that anybody climbing there after the cutting would be aware that the bolts were gone. How many signs and what size would be needed for this to be achieved.Would this signage enhance the experience of any climbimg group.I think it is a good idea not to have anymore bolts placed there or existing bolts upgraded but think that if the bolts were cut or even discussed being cut people would be opening themselves and possibly even the participants in favour on this forum to legal difficulties if somebody seriously injured themselves where a bolt had been cut. If the bolt is old and manky and fails thats the person who clipped it descision and nobody could be held liable especially if the bolt was placed pre 80's or 30 + years old. So advocate no new bolts or bolt replacement but leave those existing there and make it widely kmown that this is the policy at rosea.


kerroxapithecus

6-May-2007
11:58:02 PM

I think there's about as much liability for people cutting bolts as there is for people putting them in. What's the liability? I don't think we know because no one seems to know of a case where an injured climber has sued a person who put up bolts for their negligence in placing them. It seems an unlikely scenario but not unimaginable by any means seeing families can sue if a person dies.
My opinion is that there could be liability and therefore it might not be a good idea to advertise your work. What is more risky is joining with others as a group for the purpose of bolting routes and advertising (talk about in public) this. I have heard of this kind of thing happening. The problem here could be that the group or team establishes a duty of care and could be seen to be advertising themselves as experts resulting in others relying on safety of bolts. Worse still would be a scenario where someone obtains some benefit of value from bolting a route. Schemes receiving donations to fund work on routes are at risk as far as I can see.
In some ways it seems more logical that there would be more liability for cutting a bolt because the risk seems higher so the injury is more forseeable but it still depends on whether there is actually a duty of care. Is it reasonable for climbers to expect that there are bolts all the way up anyway? Do climbers put up climbs for others really or could they claim they do it for themselves and there is no responsibility for anyone else?
Just some thoughts and questions that I don't know the answers to.


Goshen

7-May-2007
12:06:34 AM

Removing all the 'unecessary' bolts is one thing; but removing some routes from existance because they would become death routes without bolts is a very bad idea - and surely no one person or small group of people have the divine right to do so. I've done the first pitch of Angry Young Men, and found it very enjoyable. I would be really really annoyed if i'd done a FA there, and someone then come after and chopped bolt(s).

The Grampians is not gritstone, and thank god for that.

Dodgy_Gear

7-May-2007
1:34:55 AM

Touche Simey, but having your picture on the pub wall winging of a route (Up there with Gloom on the cover of the Kimbo guide), still getting flogged playing for the Rams (2 goals is nearly a win, maybe next week), would have to bring you back down to near my level. Not to mention the world wind romantic trip to UK which would probably make us about even.
What bothers me is the hippocrasy of it all, the notion that it's ok to bolt the shit out of one crag/area, and then proclaim that another area is going to be "cleansed" of all fixed gear. Who are these people that say what I can and can't do at a crag, I have the utmost respect for the environment that I climb in (I am neither pro or anti bolting, just sensible bolting), I have no respect for these people and the mess they have created in other areas. Are they doing this for the greater good of the "climbing community" (maybe talk to a few of the climbers that you see everyday in Nati, and see how they feel about it? Although I bet most will just roll their eyes when you mention this web site.) If so count me out.

As for the dangerous precedent, DC was close to the money. More along the lines of fixing up things the way we think they should be!

TonyB

7-May-2007
7:43:01 AM

I can imagine how trad climbers would react if a group of free climbers together with local Councils or Parks and Wildlife, suggested that all metallic climbing devices had the potential to damage natural rock and that only free climbing would be permitted.

It is the height of selfishness for any one group, such as trad climbers, to want to exclude others from enjoying their sport. Surely all forms of climbing should be respected and supported, whether people want to top rope, sport, trad or free.

ithomas

7-May-2007
9:44:18 AM

The Ikara/Rosea comparison is actually pretty appropriate. Both cliffs are big on atmosphere, lines and possibilities; if you have the bottle. Keith Bell and I put up a couple of routes there (Telstar and Caladan) and in the process had a great time trying other lines, walking in and generally feeling pretty pleased with our lot. On Telstar, which is rather committing to say the least, we placed no bolts. On Caladan we placed no bolts even though there was an un-nerving runout from the last good nut to the belay ledge and a huge block from which to rap back down. Subsequently Damien Jones placed a bolt before the ledge and someone else fixed some bolts and a chain at the abseil point. No one asked Keith or me what we thought. Our answer would have been - bugger off, leave your bolts at home.
Shiny new bolts seem everywhere already. I know that sport climbing is a different game with different rules but it seems to me that sport climbers get their way every time. I think it would be totally appropriate for Rosea, Ikara, Frog Buttress, Frew's Flutes and a small number of other iconic cliffs to remain totally boltless as a reminder of what was and as inspiration for what can be. Is that too much to ask in a xsport mad world?


nmonteith

7-May-2007
9:59:12 AM

Firstly, the proposal that started this topic was the extreme end of the wedge, this was the ultimate
idea. Perhaps not achievable due to many issues outlined in peoples replies.

Because Rosea is closed currently it gives us time to reevaluate how the climbing community would
like to see this cliff in the future. Currently it has not been touched by re-bolters (SCV or NBF). I have
had requests by several people to add new rap anchors and replace lead bolts (and pitons) with new
bolts. This came about about because peoples 'worry' about how the bushfires had affected tree and
bolt anchors. These people who wanted to see new anchors included staff from Parks Victoria. I didn't
really like the idea of new rap anchors, and it gave me a thought that perhaps rosea could be protected
as a trad area. I always thought it was an area that required full use of tradional climbing skills,
including setting good belays, and route finding (including the walk-off!). Maybe I was just imagining
this ideal, and the majrity would like to see it more consumerised for the masses?

The question really is do the first ascentists want their routes to be rebolted (including the possibilty of
new bolts), or do they want to see if with modern protection these routes can be de-bolted? We have
new smaller cams, offset wires, better helmets and stronger climbers. Surely it would be interesting to
see if the place can be reverse engineered?

There are several options:
(from pro-bolt to anti-bolt)

a) Rebolt routes, adding rap anchors and replacing old bolts and pins with new bolts
b) Replace rusty dangerous bolts. No new anchors.
c) Leave current fixed pro to rust. Ban new bolts.
d) Remove all fixed pro. Ban new bolts.

Kieran, no mass de-bolting would happen without consultation and some agreement with each and
every first ascent party. Most likely it would be done on a route by route basis (if it ever WAS ever
done). This woudl be a gradual process. Perhpas a sign coudl be erected on the walking track sttaign
that this is a trad area, and that new bolts are anot accepted and that soem routes are being cleaned
up of thier old bolts??

Rebolting and new routes has been something i have been heavily involved in for many years now. I
have copped quite a bit of flack from more tradional climbers who don't agree with some of the new
anchors. This is a chance for some of these more traditional climbers to possibly turn a cliff from a
bolting grey area into a pure advenure trad area. I can gurantee that without some sort of official
agreement being made soon that new bolts will start emerging on established routes and squeezed in
new routes. A few years ago a multipitch sport route was beign constructed at Rosea on the far left
side by a Nati local. The route involved hundred of ring bolts, many of them next to bomber trad gear. I
managed to onsight ground-up lead the last pitch of this sport route on good trad gear at grade 18. If
this is the future of Rosea then we can kiss this areas advenure ideal good-bye.

And remember, this is merely a suggested idea. It not going to happen after dark tomorow. This would
be a project that will be publicly discussed and accountable.

simey

7-May-2007
10:07:21 AM

On 7/05/2007 Goshen wrote:
>I've done the first pitch of Angry Young Men, and found it very enjoyable.

Gee, someone has actually done a route at Rosea with bolts and sung its praises! I agree the first pitch of Angry Young Men is not a bad pitch, but I am sure the climbing community would survive if its bolts were removed.

>The Grampians is not gritstone, and thank god for that.

No, but Rosea is Rosea and the use of bolts on this cliff seems out of place.

In my opinion the gritstone crags of the UK actually have far more potential for brilliant bolted routes than Rosea does. However the no-bolts policy has made gritstone an even more unique and interesting climbing arena.

The great thing about the UK is that they have acknowledged the unique appeal of certain cliffs and certain rock types to restrict bolting on gritstone, mountain crags and some sea-cliffs. However they are still have plenty of sport and mixed climbs on offer at other cliffs around the country.

The Grampians offers a rich diversty of climbing. Rosea's special appeal is its multi-pitch, adventure trad climbing. What is wrong with wanting to preserve or enhance that? If you want to clip bolts, you still have plenty of other cliffs to choose from.

gfdonc

7-May-2007
11:01:25 AM

I personally don't support the distinction between "bolted" crags and "bolt free" crags.

Each route can be assessed on its merits.

I don't see the issue with "sport" routes with a piece or two of "trad" gear. It's all climbing.

Likewise I don't see the point of retrodebolting any cliffs or routes. What was done when the route was established is fine. Maintain and replace by all means.


nmonteith

7-May-2007
11:39:30 AM

Replace pitons with bolts? How about trees anchors with bolts? (these are the two that were proposed to
me by others)


Garrath

7-May-2007
11:48:10 AM

On 7/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Replace pitons with bolts? How about trees anchors with bolts?

Anything that reduces stress on ther local environment can only be a good thing.


muki

7-May-2007
12:51:57 PM

The solution is quite simple really, we have the technology to place a bolt with a cordless hammer drill,
we also have the ability to rip out the old carrot bolt and create a perfect trad placement! being a stone
mason I know the way to make a bomber nut placement in the rock to take the place of the bolt!
So what do people think about that? big K you would not lose your climb every thing could stay, the anti
boltists would be happy the anti death climbers would be happy the crag would be bolt free! and it is more
visually apealing to see a nut placement as apossed to a carrot/hanger/ring!
any way just my 2 cents worth, can any one come up with some complaints/arguments against this
idea?
Bomber pro

gfdonc

7-May-2007
12:54:33 PM

Yes, I can see one issue. Won't work at Cape Woolamai .. the rock along the edges will just crumble away ... just like it did with my other nut placements :-(


RJC

7-May-2007
1:02:34 PM

http://www.rockfax.com/areas/costa-blanca/climbing-info.html
Check out the ENP ref down the page. People will be calling you Rowland if you're not careful :-)


muki

7-May-2007
1:23:51 PM

NO, not some bogus steel tube and washer thingy that "can not be treated like a bolt"
I'm talking about creating a bomber nut placement in the rock itself,to take the place of the bolt, using the
original bolt hole to avoid any confusion about where to place the gear! using traditional stone masonry
techniques.
please read the post carfully before making wild responses that are assumptions or just plain silly!
this is a serious sugestion! to try and get every one to find a common ground for agreement on this.


cruze

7-May-2007
1:28:52 PM

Manufactured wire placement. Has been done before, on granite. That would be my only concern. How strong is the underlying rock at Rosea? If it isn't bullet hard/petina type sandstone, it is likely that continued use of the manufactured slot/whatever would degrade it to create an even uglier scar.


Breezy

7-May-2007
1:35:47 PM

On 7/05/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>NO, not some bogus steel tube and washer thingy that "can not be treated
>like a bolt"
>I'm talking about creating a bomber nut placement in the rock itself,to
>take the place of the bolt, using the
>original bolt hole to avoid any confusion about where to place the gear!
>using traditional stone masonry
>techniques.
>please read the post carfully before making wild responses that are assumptions
>or just plain silly!
>this is a serious sugestion! to try and get every one to find a common
>ground for agreement on this.
>

While your at it, you may as well chip some holds !

You cannot say altering the rock to 'make a bomber placement' is any different to chipping a hold.

If the placement is not there naturally then its JUST NOT THERE.

Using a 'pin scar' is different as the pin did the damage in its normal placement and usage and after removal you just happened to be able to use the scar as a hold or plug a cam in teh scar. What you are suggesting is to 'do damage' after the removal of the bolt.

If you were / are trolling, well done you got me !


Dom

7-May-2007
1:40:50 PM

Sounds like middle ground to me.

A permanent solution. I can foresee a few posts about doctoring but those people might be consoled by the fact there would be no need to replace bolts years down the track = safer in the long run and less holes in rock.

A permanent solution.


nmonteith

7-May-2007
1:48:55 PM

ekkk! Chiseling a large slot is hardly what I had in mind! Some of these old bolts are 1/4" or 3/16", tiny
holes in the rock.

kieranl

7-May-2007
2:23:15 PM

On 7/05/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>ekkk! Chiseling a large slot is hardly what I had in mind! Some of these
>old bolts are 1/4" or 3/16", tiny holes in the rock
Yes, Neil is quite correct. BP is missing the point. The real problem with bolts, apart from any visual impact, is not the bit of metal in the rock but the holes that they're placed in. Once a hole is drilled it stays drilled. If the bolt is removed and the hole patched it is now a patched drilled hole. Another reason why it is not possible to return Rosea to its pristine state. Must get back to work...

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