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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 79
Author
bow line
prb
1/12/2006
1:23:56 PM
On 30/11/2006 Simey wrote:
>I don't understand how a short tail on a fig-8 can cause it to explode.

By "explode" I mean to unravel quickly and completely. The cord I was using was the stiffish stuff you might tie through your hexes. It likes to straighten when bent so you need a good tail to keep the knot intact. A few mm isn't enough!

For those not familiar with a Soloist, they were invented I think for aid soloing at Yosemite but I try to free climb with the thing. You secure it between a waist and chest harness like an ascender. It cams on the rope when you fall. It works - I've taken some screamers. But it wouldn't work if you fell upside down - I'd put spaced knots in the free end of the rope for serious roofs. The knot connecting the device to your waist harness coming undone would have the same effect as falling upside down. But mostly I leave the free end unknotted as they get caught everywhere.
WM
1/12/2006
3:18:01 PM
On 1/12/2006 prb wrote:
> I mean to unravel quickly and completely.

Must have been a very wiry cord that one. On a normal supple 10.5mm dynamic rope I have seen a climber lead a route and lower off on an unfinished Figure 8 where the tail wasn't threaded through the last loop. It held all the way to the deck and the error was only discovered when they started to untie. Probably a good thing they didn't wing off like on the previous attempt.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/12/2006
4:00:02 PM
On 30/11/06 prb wrote;
>The only figure 8 problem I've seen was my fault. >I lead solo occasionally on a Soloist and had bought a (too) short length of cord (Gemini?) to attach the base of the device to my waist harness krab. >There was a bit of tail (perhaps 1cm) but not really enough for comfort.
Gemini cord is (like?) = spectra ?

Btw; If I was tying in a solo belay device I would use a double or triple fishermans knot (depending on the cord used), instead of a fig 8.

muki
1/12/2006
4:00:38 PM
On 30/11/2006 ti wrote:Although the mean break strength is higher in the figure 8 (stronger)
I have had a look at the site and its test data, unfortunatly the comment you made about the 8 bieng
stronger is false due to the method that the testers used. All knots were end knots and the * in and end
configuration is by definition a rethreaded knot, whilst the bowline used for testing was a single pass of
rope forming a bowline, a rethreaded bowline was not tested, and would at a guess be twice the strength
value given in these tests. so the "stronger" would still seem to be the bowline, thanks for the tech info to
back me up....the bomb

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/12/2006
4:55:47 PM
On 1/12/2006 bomber pro wrote:
>On 30/11/2006 ti wrote:Although the mean break strength is higher in the
>figure 8 (stronger)
>I have had a look at the site and its test data, unfortunatly the comment
>you made about the 8 bieng
>stronger is false due to the method that the testers used. All knots were
>end knots and the * in and end
>configuration is by definition a rethreaded knot, whilst the bowline used
>for testing was a single pass of
>rope forming a bowline, a rethreaded bowline was not tested, and would
>at a guess be twice the strength
>value given in these tests. so the "stronger" would still seem to be the
>bowline, thanks for the tech info to
>back me up....the bomb

?
Apart from your post being a little unclear/hard to understand (imo), you would no doubt have noted from the ti link;
>The standard Bowline was selected for the test, but the Cowboy or Dutch Bowline was tested to see if there was a difference. >The numbers were almost identical.

Your assertion/logic also contains a flaw (or two) imo.
A single pass bowline is quite acceptable as an end knot. Likewise it is possible to doubly rethread a fig 8 if one wants too.
I agree with you that they probably* only tested a single bowline and not a rethreaded one; (*caveat being I am not sure what the cowboy and dutch versions are).

It seems to me from your pictures on P3 of this topic, that your rethreading of the bowline tail does NOT include rethreading the 'critical' initial bight of rope, ie your rethread includes the harness but the tail once threaded back becomes the stopper knot.
Although I am not a lab rat, I would bet good money that the knot fails on the initial bight of rope because that is where the load comes on first and the 'most'. This initial bending is that which has been alluded to as reducing all knots by approximately 50% of their strength.
As a consequence I doubt your rethread version would be
>twice the strength value

The comment in the test about the knots being tied correctly is apt from more than one perspective.
A correctly 'dressed' knot is inherently stronger than a sloppy one.
The actual way that knot is dressed is also important, ie if the rethread passes within the initial bight of rope (doesn't matter if it is a bowline or fig 8), then that same knot is stronger than if the rethread is passed back through 'outside' the initial bend.
The strength has much to do with the degree of bend of the 1st part of the knot to take the greatest degree of load.

It is largely academic as in the real world both are suitable to the task climbers generally use them for.

... I wonder if mariners have endless debates about knot strengths / uses ?

Eduardo Slabofvic
1/12/2006
8:03:15 PM
On 1/12/2006 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>It is largely academic as in the real world both are suitable to the task
>climbers generally use them for.

Exact-a-mundo


muki
1/12/2006
8:14:29 PM
On 1/12/2006 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
your rethreading of the bowline tail does NOT include rethreading the 'critical' initial bight of rope, ie your
rethread includes the harness but the tail once threaded back becomes the stopper knot
check again on the picture, I'm not sure if you are looking at it right the rethreaded bowline I use does
rethread the whole knot including and most importantly the first bight on the bowline.

PreferKnitting
1/12/2006
11:22:23 PM
On 30/11/2006 bomber pro wrote:
>I remember reading Lyn Hill's book ,she tells the story of a day out sport
>climbing,when talking to
>another climber about shoes she got sidetracked while tying in to her
>figure 8 knot , easy enough to
>do (Mike Law did it too on boy racer)


Ah! Firstly this story just doesn't seem to add up.... For example, a sport climber using a figure 8 knot? And a climber who predominately climbs on french limestone (I believe she was climbing in Chaimonix - spelling???) whilst this incident occured. It just doesn't make sense ; )

I don't know which knot Mike Law tied in with, but I definitely know the knot Lynn Hill used was a bowline (she spelt it bolin). In an email she wrote to someone, she explains that she began tying in but instead of finishing the knot she began speaking to people and went to put on her shoes, where her shoes were positioned, she didnt think the rope would reach but it did, she then forgot to tie the rest of the knot and her jacket that she was wearing at the time also helped to hide this oversight. And the rest was history.

Anyway, I'm sure any knot would suffice, look at the pioneers, they used body belays and very litte tech gear. I jsut wanted to stir up the community and start up conversation. chockstone can sometimes be so stagnent!

Bomber Pro wrote:
>a rethreaded bowline was not tested, and would at a guess be twice the strength
>value given in these tests

M9 wrote:
>This initial bending is that which has been alluded to as reducing all knots by approximately 50% of >their strength.
As a consequence I doubt your rethread version would be
>twice the strength value

I think M9 is correct here. Any knot/ bend in a rope can't be stronger than a rope with no knot.

From ti link:

>* The mean break strength of a rope with no knot is 5,036.2 ibs
>* The mean breakt strength of a bowline is 3,179.0 ibs
If the rethreaded bowline were twice the this it would exceed the strength of teh rope without a knot!

It might be stonger, but without any research that claim is only heresay.


You're right about the figure 8 being easy to tie and identify. You can look at it and quickly see if it's correct. Great for when it's been a long day and you might be tying into your last climb!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with an old lady who's new to climbing!

Zebedee
1/12/2006
11:38:51 PM
As noted above it is the tightness of the curves that reduces the breaking strain. The stats I've seen really don't put any significant space between bowline, figure eight, figure nine. I couldn't see that the doubling back of a bowline would make much difference in the sharpness of the bends. Though the figure nine is slightly stronger than the figure eight largely because the curves are gentler. (Aside from the fact that the 9 can be loaded across the knot without extra reduction in strength) But no-one ties in with a 9. Why? cause there is fcuk all difference in practice between all these knots. And you should tie the one you are most comfortable with taking into account that a neat knot is siht loads stronger than one in which there is slack rope or unnecessary crossing of the rope.

muki
1/12/2006
11:57:40 PM
I've just looked it up in Lyns book and yes your right she did forget to tie the knot(a bowline is the
spelling she uses) but I guess my point stands you can easily forget to finish a knot that is half a knot
untill you put it through the harness and then finish it, the way I tie in is in one motion, from there I have
a knot that will hold a fall, and then I rethread it.but rather than heresay why not test it, and then tell
every one your opinion, I used to use an 8 for years, but have an open mind as to what I believe is an
improvement on any aspect of my safety whilst climbing, the result is I use what is best for the job.if
solo aiding then I lead out on a specialy modified gri gri, if trad climbing on thin gear or bad rock I use
screamers, if sharing the information I have learned from many years on the rock I am patient with
people who are set in their ways. cant teach an old dog new tricks?

PreferKnitting
2/12/2006
12:21:21 AM
Hi B.Pro

What made you decide that the bowline was a better option?

As for field testing, I can only think that that will produce more heresay because it's based on general observations but no finite results. If you choice to make a statement like

>a rethreaded bowline would at a guess be twice the strength
>value given in these tests

then it would more than likely only be resolved in labs. But hey, labs- smabs. Go climb outside and witness the reall deal you would say right? What could an upstart like me, who's retired with nothing to do so decides to pick up a hobby know about climbing and knots. You're probably thinking these hippies that are growing old with too much income! Why don't I just go buy a harley or something?

Yes, you sound experienced and what you have expereinced and witnessed is invaluable I'm sure. (I hope to climb my first grade 10 climb before I die!) An open mind is always beneficial because the environment around you changes and the sport, equipment and knowledge that you knew changes as well.

>cant teach an old dog new tricks?

Not sure if youre talking about yourself or me. But if it's me, becareful, I have sharp teeth from all the years of gnawing at bones!

muki
2/12/2006
12:01:54 PM
I choose to use a bowline because of experience, not some randomly trolled internet servey,they can be
usefull as a guide at best, but without bieng conducted by climbers using climbers knots in the manner in
wich these knots will be used, ie shock loads on body weight simulations then what use are they to me
who needs relavent information, and that information comes to me from experienced climbers and my
own personal experience, thats why I made the ridiculous comment about it bieng twice as strong,it was
just a cat I was throwing at all you pidgeons to draw out the nit pickers,m9 you should have seen through
that,you see my stupid comment is as valid as yours and others that have also quoted these test result
sites,because I am just a random poster on an internet forum,in the end if you cant learn a new knot ,or
dont want to,then you are better off tieing the one you know how to tie! that will be the safest knot for
you!, this bone has been knawed enough, people will do what they do ! this is my last post on this
subject....the bomb
One Day Hero
2/12/2006
4:49:51 PM
On 2/12/2006 bomber pro wrote:
this bone has been knawed enough, people will do what they do !
>this is my last post on this
>subject....the bomb

Please sir, it would be a terrible tragedy if the ignorant mutterings of a few malcontents would rob us of your wise musings. Amidst all the pretenders and posturing fools we are so lucky to have a real guide from mount arapiles to pronounce the truth.
It's just so plainly obvious from your delivery that you are in fact a better and more experienced climber than anyone else on this forum.
I also love the way you sign off every sermon with your witty tag, the one part of your awesome presence that I can hope to emmulate..........the hero

Eduardo Slabofvic
2/12/2006
5:40:06 PM
On 1/12/2006 Zebedee wrote:
But no-one >ties in with a 9. Why? cause there is fcuk all difference in practice between
>all these knots.

A fig.9 doesn't lock under load either, which is the trait I look for in a knot to tie in with, however is a bit of
a pain in the bottom to rethread. I'll use a fig 9 over a bowline, when clipping into a biner. Different knots
for different purposes.

I just did a bit of field testing on my locked off bowline with the half fishermans, and no amount of jiggling
could entice the tail back through the half fishermans. Ill keep trying though.


PreferKnitting
2/12/2006
8:47:30 PM
On 2/12/2006 bomber pro wrote:
>I choose to use a bowline because of experience, not some randomly trolled
>internet servey,they can be
>usefull as a guide at best,

Randomly trolled.. It's only useless info if you aren't able to comprend the information given to you. Engineering lab tests are more than 'useful guides to the real thing' Just ask Black Diamond or any gear manufacturerer what they think of such tests and whether they would consider it with such a dismissive tone.

You seem to show little respect for others who post on this forum and assume that those who are posting have less intelligence as well as less climbing experience than you.

Chosing to use a bowline because of experience was a vague answer to my question - more than likely you're just over it?. But It was the one question that I was hoping you would answer indepth because I genuinely would like to know. What makes you percieve that a bowline is stronger? Or were you just annoyed at the orginal post and thought you would defend the knot you use vermently? That's my 'the bomb' statement.



Chuck Norris
3/12/2006
9:48:40 AM
not sure what experience counts for in this discussion given that all of us have only had experience of
correctly tied knots working. If a knots tied correctly it works. Also you're kidding yourself if you think
that the type of knot is going to magically stop you from getting distracted half way through tying it
nothing substitutes for getting into the habit of double and triple checking, regardless of the knot.

I use both knots depending on the situation - although i havent jumped off a bridge, you can bet your
bottom dollar that if i was about to Id be attached to an 8.

AlanD
3/12/2006
10:27:01 AM
Just re-reading back through this thread. It seems to me that some of the people in favour of bowline are not tying the "common" or "basic" bowline, but a rethreaded version of it, possibly a "birmingham bowline" or "bowline on the bite". As there are about 40 variants of a bowline, it's important to specify that if you're using/discussing a variant of the common bowline, then you should indicate that. The some of the variants of the bowline will not acidently come undone, would not significantly weaken the rope and are probably safer than a double figure of 8, if they are correctly tied. The people questioning the safety of the bowline I assume are discussing the common bowline. The end result is confusion.

While the discussion of the figure 8 has ocurred, it's only logical to assume that people are discussing the "double figure of 8" knot, as a "figure 8" knot does not form a loop.

Edit: Even the "double figure of 8" has different meanings looking at the "knot tying tech tips in Chockstone. My references to the "double figure of 8" is termed here a "figure 8 on the bite" or "figure 8 with follow through" and not the "bunny ear figure 8".

tnd
4/12/2006
1:08:11 PM
On 2/12/2006 bomber pro wrote:
>I choose to use a bowline because of experience, not some randomly trolled
>internet servey,they can be
>usefull as a guide at best, but without bieng conducted by climbers using
>climbers knots in the manner in
>wich these knots will be used, ie shock loads on body weight simulations
>then what use are they to me
>who needs relavent information, and that information comes to me from
>experienced climbers and my
>own personal experience, thats why I made the ridiculous comment about
>it bieng twice as strong,it was
>just a cat I was throwing at all you pidgeons to draw out the nit pickers,m9
>you should have seen through
>that,you see my stupid comment is as valid as yours and others that have
>also quoted these test result
>sites,because I am just a random poster on an internet forum,in the end
>if you cant learn a new knot ,or
>dont want to,then you are better off tieing the one you know how to tie!
>that will be the safest knot for
>you!, this bone has been knawed enough, people will do what they do !
>this is my last post on this
>subject....the bomb

Now that you know all about knots, do you think you can learn a bit about basic English punctuation and sentence/paragraph construction? You do have some good points to make, but your stream of consciousness delivery is almost unintelligible.

Here's a quick lesson: one idea, one paragraph; one statement, one sentence; keep sentences shorter than 25 words.

Garrath
4/12/2006
10:16:25 PM
may help, may knot.........

http://www.animatedknots.com/

 Page 4 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 79
There are 79 messages in this topic.

 

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