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bow line


Eduardo Slabofvic

29-Nov-2006
8:31:09 PM

Have been using bowlines to tie in with for over 20 years. They've never even looked like comming
undone. Use what you want. I still haven't found a rule book for climbing.


rodw

29-Nov-2006
8:38:26 PM

On 29/11/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>. I still haven't found a rule book for climbing.

If you go to Dymocks they can order it in.


Eduardo Slabofvic

29-Nov-2006
8:43:38 PM

...sorry, I should be more accurate. I use a double bowline, with the tail locked off through the knot, and
at least two turns on the half fishermans to tie off the tail

simey

29-Nov-2006
9:53:01 PM

On 29/11/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Have been using bowlines to tie in with for over 20 years. They've never even looked like comming undone. Use what you want. I still haven't found a rule book for climbing.

The fact that there are lots of stories about bowlines coming undone, yet I've never heard one story of a fig-8 untying would probably indicate what is the more bombproof knot.

But Eduardo, I think you in particular should continue using bowlines.

simey

29-Nov-2006
9:56:25 PM

On 29/11/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>They are just sooo much easier to un-tie when you are ultra pumped. Useful for hard sport climbing - not great for long trad.

Well I'm sure the guy whose bowline came undone when sport-climbing appreciated the fact that there wasn't a knot to undo before he got carted off on a stretcher.


nmonteith

29-Nov-2006
10:06:38 PM

Harnesses break, biners snap, ropes get cut - things happen when you climb.

kieranl

29-Nov-2006
10:44:01 PM

I try to cut down the number of everyday basics that I can stuff up. First rule is to find something that's hard to get wrong. Then use it all the time. I just don't use a bowline anymore for tying in.
I also practise staying on the couch a lot.

PensionerPower

29-Nov-2006
11:50:48 PM

On 29/11/2006 simey wrote:

>If you still believe bowlines are the go for tying-in, then check out
>the latest Black Diamond catalogue (I think it was BD). There is a story
>about a guy who busted himself up pretty good after his bowline came undone.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/pdf/bd_s06_rock_catalog.pdf
page "36-37 (20 of 38)"

"For tying in, you don’t need to know anything other than the figure 8. Tied correctly, the “8” will never untie unexpectedly. While some complain about the 8 cinching tight after a few falls, it’s far preferable to a knot that can untie itself without warning - and if you’re too pumped to untie a knot, it’s time to find an easier project."

"Adam Abraham survived a 65-foot ground fall due to his bowline untying but his body did not fare well - left and right foot shattered, left and right ankle fractured, left fibula and right wrist broken, L3 vertebra disintegrated and L4 fractured. After seven surgeries, a cadaver’s vertebra, three rods, a plate and 19 screws, Miracle Boy continues to improve with remarkable strides."

Why take the risk?


muki

30-Nov-2006
1:51:46 AM

I remember reading Lyn Hill's book ,she tells the story of a day out sport climbing,when talking to
another climber about shoes she got sidetracked while tying in to her figure 8 knot , easy enough to
do (Mike Law did it too on boy racer) well she leaned back on the anchor only to discover her
mistake..whoops too late. the one advantage the 8 has is its good for people who are beginers or not
very good with knots they can play the racing car game to get it tied up themselves when I'm instructing
for top ropes. the bowline I use is the true rethreaded bowline and it can never come undone accidentally,
and it has several advantages over the figure 8. No 1, bieng tied in one motion
from the begining it is impossible to tie only half the knot like poor lyn. No 2, it passes twice through
my harness on the rethread,making it much stronger than the 8 ,it only passes once through the
harness. No 3, easy to check to see that it's tied correctly, just like the 8 it follows itself around the
knot , so is obvious if wrong. No 4, comes undone easily after a 20m fall. even if the double
fishermans stopper knot comes undone, then the knot has to undo itself once completely and then
somehow get two feet of tail back up through the two parts of the harness tie in before you are left with
a perfectly tied bowline with a two and a half foot tail. It just doesn't happen ! but hey, try it out
yourself, see if you can get this knot to untie itself...good luck...the bomb

Ot-doy

30-Nov-2006
1:54:57 AM

I use a figure-8 with a simple "extra pass".......
makes it much easier to untie, regardless of how much it cinches. http://www.climerware.com/f8x.shtml
It's been around for years, but few people seem to use it.

Another advantage : when you grab the rope to clip a draw, it feels 'clean'....
the free end isn't there to get in the way.


Eduardo Slabofvic

30-Nov-2006
9:24:43 AM

On 29/11/2006 simey wrote:
>The fact that there are lots of stories about bowlines coming undone,
>yet I've never heard one story of a fig-8 untying would probably indicate
>what is the more bombproof knot.

I've heard plenty of stories about alien abductions, so I guess that means that it's true. The only stories
I've heard of bowlines coming undone was when they were tied incorrectly, which means that they weren't
bowlines.

So you think bow lines are dodgy knots and so you wont tie in with them, but you will use them when
you’re rigging, so that means, by your own definitions, that your rigging is dodgy. Keep up the good work.

simey

30-Nov-2006
9:39:10 AM

On 29/11/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>Harnesses break, biners snap, ropes get cut - things happen when you climb.

Exactly, that's why you try and incorporate back-ups into the system, or you try and make things more bombproof/foolproof.

When I teach climbing, I am always having a go at people for focusing on the wrong issues. An example is people faffing around rigging belays and incorporating escapabable systems and using fancy knots. But then you check their anchors and realise they have missed the best placements. They have focused on whole range of unlikely scenarios or insignificant issues and yet were happy to rely on a dodgy anchor system.

I see this concern about the ease of untying a knot after you fall to be equally trivial in the scheme of things.

I've gotta say that the bowline knot that Bomber has presented appears to be a well-thought out affair. It doesn't look like it can untie and I like the idea that it is impossible to only tie half a knot and then get distracted (which has happened to numerous experienced climbers).

simey

30-Nov-2006
9:48:33 AM

On 30/11/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 29/11/2006 simey wrote:
>So you think bow lines are dodgy knots and so you wont tie in with them, but you will use them when you’re rigging, so that means, by your own definitions, that your rigging is dodgy. Keep up the good work.

I don't tie-in with a bowline because the knot is being exposed to a wide range of forces which could cause the knot to loosen and untie.

When I use bowlines in rigging, they are being used in situations where they can't be jiggled, bumped and knocked-around to the same extent.


Richard

30-Nov-2006
1:13:36 PM

On 30/11/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 29/11/2006 simey wrote:
>>The fact that there are lots of stories about bowlines coming undone,
>>yet I've never heard one story of a fig-8 untying would probably indicate
>>what is the more bombproof knot.
>
>I've heard plenty of stories about alien abductions, so I guess that means
>that it's true. The only stories I've heard of bowlines coming undone was when they were tied incorrectly, which means that they weren't bowlines.

now now now kiddies, no fighting in the main street of nati...

I don't read a lot of US mags but just about every second one I do seems to have a story about some yank's bowline coming un done .. not sure why their affinity with this knot as a tie-in seems to be as great as their affinity for guns, but both of these loves of the US are killing them quite well...

For me (trad climbing) the entire purpose of the knot is for it's function while tied .. so I choose a knot which is least likely to get tied wrong and fail its primary (only?) function .. ( a figure 8).

Dave C

30-Nov-2006
2:35:53 PM

On 30/11/2006 Richard wrote:

>now now now kiddies, no fighting in the main street of nati...

Should I be expecting blood on the street if I'm up there on Saturday?


muki

30-Nov-2006
3:03:01 PM

On 30/11/2006 Richard wrote:
the entire purpose of the knot is for it's function while tied
I think that if your concern is to find a functional knot that is the least likely to come undone then the
rethreaded bowline must be the one for you . it cannot come undone,unless you choose to undo it and
you cannot tie only half the knot like so many others have done.extreemly functional,stronger, safer. so
give it a shot and see what you think,unless you have only made up your mind because you read
somewhere it was safer ,maybe you want to see for yourself and make up your own mind,without just
repeating what you read in some book or mag.the pictures I have left in the above post are relatively
easy to understand....the bomb


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Nov-2006
4:05:22 PM

On 30/11/2006 bomber pro wrote:
>I remember reading
(snip)
>...good luck...the bomb

& On another thread wrote;
>>stop clogging up the site with any more esoteric deep and meaningfull crap, or facts about knots that have no bearing on climbers that actually know how to tie in ....the bomb

M9 replied ...
>That thread has 37 replies on it (and I was not one of them), so it seems I am not alone in enjoying 'deep & meaningful' (or otherwise) stuff, as I note there are some well respected contributors amongst the reply list.

Good to see another post/s worthy of respect, added to a good thread now up to 56 postings.

I used to use a bowline with stopper.
I now use a fig 8, ... changed over some years ago, but the reason was more academic in terms of strength ratings I once read, particularly if the knot is wet.
I like the rethreaded knots and don't generally have issues with untying them once tightened in a fall.
The rethreaded bowline looks good to me.
Re
>you cannot tie only half the knot
and
>even if the double fishermans stopper knot comes undone, then the knot has to undo itself once completely and then somehow get two feet of tail back up through the two parts of the harness tie in before you are left with a perfectly tied bowline with a two and a half foot tail

... (k)nit* picking I know, but if anyone manages to stuff up the initial knot then the rethread wouldn't have the same value, other than being a lengthy tail ?
(*pun intended; Heh, heh, heh!)

I may give this knot a go next time I am out.

prb

30-Nov-2006
5:37:27 PM

On 30/11/2006 ti wrote:
>* The mean break strength of a figure 8 end is 3,493.8 Ibs
>* The mean breakt strength of a bowline is 3,179.0 ibs

This is consistent with my understanding that the weak point of any knot is where the rope is most curved, ie. the sharpest "bend". I believe the figure 8 is the best knot possible in that regard. But obviously these are both strong knots if tied correctly.

A few years back a fairly experienced climber got his bowline wrong at Norton Summit, resulting in 2 broken wrists and 2 broken ankles. Other SA Chockstoners may know more details of that story.

The only figure 8 problem I've seen was my fault. I lead solo occasionally on a Soloist and had bought a (too) short length of cord (Gemini?) to attach the base of the device to my waist harness krab. There was a bit of tail (perhaps 1cm) but not really enough for comfort. At a remote crag in the Moonarie area, preparing to step from an easy pillar onto a hardish wall, I test weighted the system and the figure 8 just exploded. I went a bit pale and retired for the day. Obviously a decent tail is essential for any knot, particularly with stiffish cord. It's good when you learn a lesson without getting badly hurt.

simey

30-Nov-2006
5:47:56 PM

On 30/11/2006 prb wrote:
>... I test weighted the system and the figure 8 just exploded. I went a bit pale and retired for the day. Obviously a decent tail is essential for any knot, particularly with stiffish cord. It's good when you learn a lesson without getting badly hurt.

I really can't picture what you are talking about. I don't understand how a short tail on a fig-8 can cause it to explode. Sounds dangerous though... hope Al-Qaeda don't pick up on it.


tnd

1-Dec-2006
9:23:27 AM

It's ok, the mods have rejected Osama bin Laden's application to join. I believe he's going pretty hard these days too, what with all the bouldering in those caves.

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