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 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 39
Bundaleer - June Update
big arms
2:45:27 PM
Dear all,

all I can say to you is that the destruction to Bundaleer was intense. Every tree that vegetates the cliffline has been damaged in some way. The fire and heat did not prejudice, and so, if it could be burn't, it was.
As far as the bolts are concerned, I am more worried about the affects of heat on the glue. Would anyone be willing to sign off on the safety of the glue/ metal/ rock interfaces? There is probably a 99% chance they are ok, but it's time to do the right thing, and stack the odds in our own favour.
As far as the routes are concerned, I am more than sure that an inspection of the route before climbing would be a good idea. The sandstone is fragile, and I'm sure any climber would not appreciate either hand or foot coming off! There has been mention of the cliffline exploding in sections as the temp's in there got a little bit warm....... If you were lucky enough to see the presentation by Sylvia, she had a slide which showed the smoke being seen in Western Port that had travelled in an easterly aspect from the Grampians fire. With a bit of luck, we might be able to talk Sylvia into presenting again, maybe at Cliffhanger..........
I feel that if there is no further damage in the very near future, it is an incredible opportunity for the climbing community to work with PV and sort this place out.
Maximise our use, and Minimise our effect. Bundaleer is a crag of great significance with a lot of history. It is a crag which has my own personal history, all of which is good............unless it was winter.
PV are fearing the worst again for this summer as the projected controlled burn off periods have been missed due to rain, so we might be in for another turbulent summer.
Finally , you must remember, PV are working on a priority list. Bringing tourists back to the park is numero uno, as the lives of many business operators depend on tourism. So if it takes 1, 2, or even 3 years, please be patient, obey the rules, and we can all benfit from this in the future...........Who knows, there even might be a garden path for the baby boomers. ( You know who you are ! )

All the best,


2:50:28 PM

I basically wanted to post Big Arms pictures because I was curious as to the fire damage in this area and I knew others would also be interested. The fire was very intense and there will be a lot of loose rock (no vegetation holding stuff together) and the area will be very unstable for quite some time. Even when Parks Vic reopens this part of the park it will be a riskier area than before.

I would have grave doubts about the safety of any fixed gear on these cliffs.

3:45:28 PM
good to see that the cairn at the base of manic was not damaged. Phew!

4:06:29 PM
All that fire & heat and the chalk is still on the rock....
4:12:46 PM
So we can tick fire off as an option for cleaning the chalk graffiti on Taipan...

5:44:01 PM
On 28/08/2006 Zebedee wrote:
>I would have grave doubts about the safety of any fixed gear on these cliffs.

What do you base your grave doubts on, Zebedee? Leaving aside the general condition of the rock itself, what is it that you are relying on in forming this opinion?

I'm not trying to be critical of you here, but my experience and that of some others on the site is that bolts tend to hold up remarkably well under a variety of adverse circumstances - fire included.

8:44:14 PM
Leaving aside the fact that a great deal of heat may fracture the rock around fixed gear. There are two kinds of bolt glue in and expansion (oh and carrots) what do you think the manufacturers of these bolts would say about exposing them to temperature above 200C. Yes the bolts could be safe but I will be waiting for someone else to test them with their worthless lives and keep my worthless life for other things. Basically it's a an assumption of mine that with bolts and rock expanding and contracting at different rates under extreme temperatures that the bolts at this crag are more likely to be dangerous than safe.
Big Arms
10:13:36 PM
I have the same thoughts Z. It's ok to climb these routes and not fall on any of the gear, that would make them safe wouldn't it? How do we benchmark what is safe and what is not?
Neil, is there any form of testing that can be done other than running it out and testing the pull out / sheer strength after massive ranges in extremes of temp's?
Don't get me wrong here, if Bundaleer was to open tomorrow, there are plenty of other quality routes to have me going home with my tail between my legs.
I think this topic really requires somekind of scientific / metalurgical experience. Maybe even the manufacture's recommendations.
Big Arms
10:18:23 PM
It's true, only after a nuclear holocaust two things survived Mag. Carbonate and c--kroaches..............Damn those climbing c--kroaches


7:38:29 AM
On 28/08/2006 Big Arms wrote:
>I think this topic really requires somekind of scientific / metalurgical
>experience. Maybe even the manufacture's recommendations.

This is part of the problem: the sort of uses climbers put bolts to are not recommended or even sanctioned by any manufacturers. If you followed standard industry procedure for anchors that will be used to safeguard human life, then even HB's bolt at the bottom of Angular would be considered marginal.

In-situ testing isn't straightforward. Manufacturer data on the effect of heat in this sort of application is non-existant. Hilti, Powers and Ramset don't list anything on their websites on the effect of elevated temperature post installation. My own somewhat unscientific experiments with glue-in carrots in a bluestone block would seem to suggest that the sort of temps you need to seriously degrade a 2-part epoxy are waaaay in excess of the sort of temperatures you'd get on a rock face in a bushfire.*

My guess as to the safety of the bolts at Bundaleer is that they are as safe as the rock they are in. And even then, longer bolts, particularly expansions, could well remain safe enough even in rock that has suffered mild exfoliation.

* heating the bolt till it began to glow produced some evil smoke and bubbling at the glue interface. Once it cooled, everything looked to re-solidify and the bolt was as difficult to remove as the non heated one. But I would hardly call this a scientific investigation.
mikl law
8:17:19 AM
I beleive that the major concern would be rock damage by cracking.

Tmarsh's investigation is perfectly scientific, he even pulled it out and compared the loads required to an unheated bolt.Did you notice how far down the shaft the glue was damaged for, i'm guessing about 10 mm only.

8:28:30 AM
On 29/08/2006 mikl law wrote:
>Did you notice how
>far down the shaft the glue was damaged for, i'm guessing about 10 mm only.

The most obvious damage was within 10-15mm of the surface - major discolouration. Then about another 10mm of less discoloured epoxy. From about 25mm down the rest of the shaft it looked fine to me. The discoloured stuff was quite brittle.

The reason why I say my approach was unscientific was that I had no real way of accurately comparing the pull-out strength. Counting the number of times you cranked on a hydraulic car jack that you scored from a wreckers won't exactly get you into a peer reviewed journal.

9:00:58 AM
Nobody is qualified (or well enough insured) to test these bolts and declare them safe. Like any fixed protection it will be up to each climber to decide for themselves. It will certainly be interesting to see the new Bundaleer in a year or so from now. I think it is fascinating how nature recovers after a fire and the rock is only one aspect.

9:01:56 AM
On 28/08/2006 Big Arms wrote:
>Neil, is there any form of testing that can be done other than running
>it out and testing the pull out / sheer strength after massive ranges in
>extremes of temp's?

Visual and physical inspection of the actual bolts would be required. We have access to a Hilti pull-tester
which 'could' be used for this purpose - although we don't usually go around testing bolts in this way as it
can damage the bolts.
Big Arms
2:36:42 PM
Thanks for your response Neil, all I can do is believe you guys. I have very little experience ( NONE ) at placing glue in protection. My only experience is with carrots into Granite ( Mount Stanley ). I hope this has not frustrated anyone.

5:35:14 PM

Big Arms
6:25:38 PM
Keep loading them up Zeb.


7:19:00 PM

1:24:31 PM

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 39
There are 39 messages in this topic.


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