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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 194
Author
Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
4/01/2006
7:59:12 AM
On 3/01/2006 ryan07 wrote:
>Maybe if fixed gear is removed from a route it should be left with the gear removed.

That's a good idea ryan07.
I've seen too many routes spoiled by 'laziness' in removing pro., and that includes aid lines.

Yeah fixed gear often becomes 'fixed' due to having been fallen on, 2nd did not have a nut tool, possible be-nightment etc, but like picking up rubbish after others, I have found a fair bit of 'booty' this way!, ... where the climb never had the fixed stuff to start with.
gfdonc
4/01/2006
10:38:41 AM
Plenty more 'fixed' gear on Seventh Pillar if anyone wants it (sob).
uwhp510
5/01/2006
11:20:56 PM
I say leave the manky pegs. Everyone makes their own judgements as to how good any piece of fixed gear is, including a bolt, so this is no different. There are very few examples of routes where the failure of one peg = serious injury/death and I think that the guidebook is pretty good at pointing out scary routes, so the argument about people getting in over their heads due to the fixed pro no being up to scratch is pretty specious. After all we expect people to be able to evaluate the natural protection options so why not fixed pro as well (eg rusty droopy carrots/rusty upside down knifeblades = shit).

Bolts = homogeneity and non-memorability.
One Day Hero
8/01/2006
7:17:11 PM
Good point uwhp510, take some responsibility people, and back off a route every now and then, it's good for your character.
Now, I'm going to try and be calm about this...what exactly has happened to Kachoong??!!!
Perhaps the re equipper would be kind enough to put their hand up and explain what has been done, why, and what sort of thought went into it.

shaggy
8/01/2006
10:44:37 PM
Ok, here's an example, and simey, don't lynch me!
Last week, one of my friends, who is just starting to lead, lead blockbuster, and clipped one of the remaining pitons, even though there is bomber gear just below and above the piton. He then made the assumption, not understanding any differently, that it was bomber, and then proceeded with the bulge...
I then proceeded to clean the climb, and got to the piton, just for shites and giggles, I then decided to give the draw a whip to look at the pin, it moved, a conciderable amount, to the point where after 2 more whips the pin came out.
After my friend saw this, he learnt his lesson, but one may not be so fortunate, yes it is only an 11 to us, but to people just starting or climbing at their limit, it is a different situation.
Again, my opinion, if it is not safe, pull it, if it is safe, leave it.
uwhp510
11/01/2006
5:33:55 PM
That seems fair enough, but the term safe is so subjective as to render it useless. Since everyone has a different level of risk that they are comfortable with, the idea that we should pull all "unsafe" pitons means that there would eventually be no pitons left, thanks to some overzealous safety nazi. I think if you can pull a piton by hand, then its probably a good idea to do so (there might be a little cam placement in its place I guess), but it you need a hammer/funkness device to get it out then it can probably stay.

Also a piton cannot be dangerous by itself (it doesn't jump out of the rock and gouge out your eyes as you climb past it for example), but the act of trusting a bad pin might be dangerous, hence all pitons are safe, but falling on them might not be.
maxdacat
11/01/2006
9:38:06 PM
On 5/01/2006 uwhp510 wrote:
>I say leave the manky pegs. Everyone makes their own judgements as to
>how good any piece of fixed gear is, including a bolt, so this is no different.
> There are very few examples of routes where the failure of one peg = serious
>injury/death and I think that the guidebook is pretty good at pointing
>out scary routes, so the argument about people getting in over their heads
>due to the fixed pro no being up to scratch is pretty specious. After
>all we expect people to be able to evaluate the natural protection options
>so why not fixed pro as well (eg rusty droopy carrots/rusty upside down
>knifeblades = shit).
>
>Bolts = homogeneity and non-memorability.

Must say I disagree. Why do we bother at all with pitons in this day and age. With the advent of cams and micro wires then there may be a better natural option instead.....if not then a bolt is surely the answer. Why retain a rusty manky pin for historical reasons or so a leader can "evaluate" it just like a piece of natural pro......that doesn'e make much sense. Instead of evaluating, remove and replace with a better (safer) option.

A good example would be Firebug (16) at Mt Boyce. On the 2nd pitch there is rusty pin with pleant of natural placements above and below. Most people like me probably clip it anyway but it would be no great loss if someone pulled it.....and in this case no extra fixed gear would be needed. (but if someone did feel like replaceing the single carrot belay on the final pitch that would be nice).

Australia is not the Alps (where pins are a useful economic option) so I'm not sure why they're still being discussed?
one day hero
11/01/2006
11:12:33 PM
O.K., no response from the kachoong retro-bolter, I'll have a spray instead!

First, clearing up some ringbolt propaganda from Neil;

On 21/12/2005 nmonteith wrote:
">It has been proven (via reseach conducted by the VCC through CISIRO -
>i think) that glue-in carrots are
>inherently weaker than expansion bolts. The bolt itself is as strong -
>but the keyhole hanger method of
>attachment is considerably weaker due to the hanger folding open around
>the bolt head when loaded."

The quoted lower strength for carrot hangers is only in the case of the draw and hanger inverting and loading in a "pulling the ring tab on a tinnie" way. This is very unlikely!
Loaded normally, a keyhole hanger will fail at no less than the rated strength of 22kN.
Note that the sort of jiggleing required to frig a hanger into this position would easily flip a biner in a ringbolt too, possibly crossloading the biner and giving an even weaker breaking strength!
Stop bullshitting about safety and stick to your only valid point, you couldn't be f---ed with the effort of putting hangers on.

Now onto Kachoong.
The pin at the start has been replaced with a ring, I don't like it but I can see some arguement for it.
The two rings for belay up the top (and two more with chains one meter away!), however, are undiluted retrobolts! What justification is there for 4 new bolts 2m from bombproof natural placements?
The shitty thing is that removing glued retro bolts can only be done by f---ing the rock. So anyone offended by the bolts but reluctant to make a permanent mess of a beautiful route faces a tough choice.
When the rebolting started, I had nothing but praise for the guys replacing rusty carrots and slingpiles with stainless bolts. Now, however, I find myself siding with Simey. It's gone too far. Stop, before you completely wreck the place.
maxdacat
11/01/2006
11:27:29 PM
On 11/01/2006 one day hero wrote:
> The two rings for belay up the top (and two more with chains one meter
>away!), however, are undiluted retrobolts! What justification is there
>for 4 new bolts 2m from bombproof natural placements?

seems a bit unnecessary esp when there are natural placements there.....any ideas why this was done....convenience for top roping practice?

nmonteith
12/01/2006
8:29:03 AM
On 11/01/2006 uwhp510 wrote:
> I think if you can pull a piton by hand, then its probably
>a good idea to do so (there might be a little cam placement in its place
>I guess),

This is such a myth! Most piton placments are in hairline cracks that are impossible to protect with
cams. Even the smallest camming units (ie Black Aliens or WC Zeros) don't fit into the cracks from
larger sized pitons. These sized cams are also much weaker than a piton in the same placment. The
only time when cams fit into cracks formed from pitons is when the piton placment has been placed then
removed hundreds of times - forming a very nasty looking pocketed pin scar in a square shape. Even
these don't hold cams very well.
NMcKinnon
12/01/2006
12:37:10 PM
Am I reading this thread correctly? Kachoong has had a bolt added? I cannot believe it. Such a disgrace.
BoaredOfTheRings
12/01/2006
12:54:11 PM
On 12/01/2006 NMcKinnon wrote:
>Am I reading this thread correctly? Kachoong has had a bolt added? I cannot
>believe it. Such a disgrace.

Unfortunately this is the mind set of a few individuals with very little idea of the consept of climbing. ACTUP is in the process of removing many of these bolts (I could list the routes but it will be a nice surprise for the onsight). Dont worry most have bomber natural gear nearby. A couple of the removed pins have even left good nut placements aswell. ACTUP have developed a method for the removal of glue ins which does not scar the rock, except for the original hole. Actually the ease at which these glue ins can be removed brings into question how secure they are in the first place. Kachoong has been added to the list and will be cleaned shortly.

Thanks,

ACTUP

Richard
12/01/2006
12:58:53 PM
On 31/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>More to the point - Chris Shepard is readily contactable - did anyone
>ask him if he'd mind having his route changed? Every time I've rebolted
>a route I've exercised the courtesy of writing to or calling the first
>ascensionist and asking their permission. I just think its polite....
>is that anywhere in the VCC or Safe Cliffs bolting guidelines? I sincerely
>hope that someone will do the same if they ever want to re-equip one of
>my routes.

Phew... yes, that is covered (in the VCC guidelines) - quite near the start:

1.4 "Fixed protection should not be added or moved on a climb (i.e. retro-bolting) that has previously been done by naturally protected means without the express permission of the first ascentionist. If the bolt placement needs to be changed and the first ascentionist cannot be contacted then ‘local best practice’ should be used (see section 5 – Replacing Bolts, Bolt Removal and Retro-bolting). Routes exist where the first ascentionist wanted to create a climb in the purest possible style. Adding or moving bolts may alter the nature of the climb and devalue the efforts of the first ascent."

Cheers

nmonteith
12/01/2006
1:16:22 PM
On 12/01/2006 NMcKinnon wrote:
>Am I reading this thread correctly? Kachoong has had a bolt added? I cannot
>believe it. Such a disgrace.

Either this is the greatest troll ever or a damn travesty! Choppy chop chop someone quick smart.

adski
12/01/2006
1:37:42 PM
Is that your line twitching Damo? Quick, reel it in!!!

Hook, line and sinker.
Nottobetaken
12/01/2006
2:11:42 PM
On the flip side - I hope the ACTUP (whatever that is) doesn't themselves go on a mindless chopping spree. I hope there's some thought given (prior to removing these bolts) as to whether they are justified or not. Granted, Kachoong probably could do without them (and yes - they are there) - but perhaps some communication by way of a meeting could be arranged between the bolters and the 'ACTUP'. Going on a renegade removal/replacement war could lead to an even worse scenario...

That said - in the case of a route like Kachoong, are the 'choppers' going to take a page out of Jonesy's book - and chop the bolt - and leave it at that? Or does their line of thinking trend toward putting a pin back in the original placement?

nmonteith
12/01/2006
2:18:50 PM
On 12/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:
ACTUP (whatever that is)

Arapiles Chopping and Traditionalist Union of the Pines?
Bob Saki
12/01/2006
2:39:50 PM
On 12/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:
- but
>perhaps some communication by way of a meeting could be arranged between
>the bolters and the 'ACTUP'. Going on a renegade removal/replacement war
>could lead to an even worse scenario...
>

there must be some meeting of the minds- a bolting war for lack of a better term would be acrimonious and divisive
c'mon people it's mabo, it's the constitution - it's just the vibe of the thing -
let diplomacy reign!
dalai
12/01/2006
2:42:39 PM
ACTUP is Eduardo's acronym from last year.

Arapiles Chopping Team Unilateral Police
Jonesy
12/01/2006
2:52:32 PM
On 12/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:

>That said - in the case of a route like Kachoong, are the 'choppers' going
>to take a page out of Jonesy's book - and chop the bolt - and leave it
>at that? Or does their line of thinking trend toward putting a pin back
>in the original placement?

Hey Crossdresser... a moot point but I've never actually chopped a bolt. What I said early on is that if a peg (or other fixed gear) ripped then it would be best (ie finest style) to go back and climb the route without that piece.

RE: the retrobolting of Kachoong (& the rest of Arapiles).... it feels like these retrobolters are essentially remaining nameless and pretty much just doing whatever they want. These people are imposing their views and opinions on our entire community. Does anyone know who is actually responsible for sinking these bolts and more importantly how they can be contacted? # or email?

It would it be great to invite them to have a look at some of the opinions both for & against their actions expressed in this thread. Perhaps some common ground can be reached?

This is the thin end of the wedge and more important routes will follow. Surely no reasonable person could argue that Kachoong is not a historically important route of significant heritage value. What would Hot Henry think? Action needs to be taken NOW to avoid this whole situation degenerating into a bolt chopping war where no one wins and the rock is forever damaged. Safety is important, but the sanctity of the rock is more so. In my opinion (disagree as much as you want) these actions demonstrate a complete lack of respect for just about every aspect of the climbing experience.

STOP RETROBOLTING ARAPS!!!!!!

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