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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 194
Author
Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!
maxdacat
21/12/2005
9:13:16 PM
On 21/12/2005 hangdog wrote:
>I know its been done to death!!
>But this issue of re- bolting with "carrots" just gets me going. Do people
>really think that when these "carrots" were first placed that the climbers
>placing them had a choice with what type of bolt they would put in. Mostly
>they didn,t . They placed "carrots"because that was what was available
>at the time. Bolting with "carrots" was also a financial consideration.
>It was cheaper to bolt up a route with "carrots" and no hangers. These
>people who look back into the past with "misty eyes" don,t take into account
>all the other technical advances that have been made since those days.
>
couldn't have said it better myself
chris
21/12/2005
9:45:50 PM
Re the rebolting of Mind arthritis....
apparently the final piece of gear, the peg, held body weight, but probably not a fall.

I have personally replaced some gear in the blue mtns, and it is quite surprising how hard it is to get out gear that appears to be "body weight only".
I would be very surprised if a true "body weight only" piece of gear could somehow survive 20 years in one of the most popular harder climbs at arapiles!! Surely it would have been ripped out years ago?

I would be interested to hear how simey and jonesy would replace such "body weight only" placements?
And who would volunteer to replace the gear every time someone took a fall and pulled it out?

I suppose you could just remove the gear entirely, but this changes the route dramatically. Climbers would no longer have the option of sitting on the gear if they got a bit scared or pumped. And realistically, it probably would have held a fall.... otherwise it wouldn't have been there anymore!



Onsight
21/12/2005
10:57:25 PM
On 20/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>While I totally agree that
>shitty old bolts should be replaced by bomber (preferably stainless glue-in's)
Too right.

>and I absolutely applaud the time and dedication of the people doing the
>replacing,
Here here! It’s really important work and it’s a thankless job and I reckon it’s fantastic there are people prepared to do the work…

>it just seems like preserving a sense of history should also
>be considered.
Well maybe but…

On 21/12/2005 rodw wrote:
>Its a sad day when a bit of metal shoved in the rock in the dark ages
>is what makes the climb, rather than the climb itself…
EXACTLY!

On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>I think it's an important point that re-equipping may be occuring under
>the guise of a community service when infact it is an inherently selfish
>act.
Now now Chris, fair suck of the sav bottle! I think that’s going a bit far!

Hey Chris (J) have you got any more examples of actually RETRO-bolting at Arapiles other than Mind Arthritis (and maybe Cassandra)? You guys seem to be basing pretty much your whole argument on like this one route. I climbed this route years ago and while the peg didn’t concern me I certainly don’t think it added anything to its “character”. If it has been replaced by a good bolt now - then, well, great! Anyway, I’d hardly call this a case of retro-bolting as obviously it was the intention of the first ascentionist to have some fixed gear around there anyway. Like we agreed at the start, the rebolting needs doing, it’s a lot of work, personally I’m happy for the people actually doing the work to exercise a bit of discretion over decisions like that.

I’ve spoken with at least some of the people doing the re-bolting and think they probably do consider these issues more than some of you are giving them credit for. My only gripe was rings not being fully recessed in the early days but that has changed now.

At least they are doing the work!
simey
21/12/2005
11:51:43 PM
On 21/12/2005 rodw wrote:
>Its a sad day when a bit of metal shoved in the rock in the dark ages is what makes the climb, rather than the climb itself…
Well that shows a pretty poor understanding of climbing, given that the climbing experience is inextricably linked to the nature of the protection (unless you top-rope all the time). I couldn't even guess at the number of memorable experiences I've had climbing funky gear routes, yet I struggle to think of one genuinely unique moment on all the hundreds of sport-routes I ticked in France.

On 21/12/2005 onsight wrote:
>At least they are doing the work!
I totally agree that the vast majority of rebolting work has been worthwhile. My major concern is when they start touching the popular mega-classics (many of which were never dangerous to begin with) and it's suddenly decided that every fixed piece needs to be replaced with a glue-in ring, rather than just replacing those pieces where your life really depends on them.


Onsight
22/12/2005
12:47:56 AM
On 21/12/2005 simey wrote:
>On 21/12/2005 rodw wrote:
>>Its a sad day when a bit of metal shoved in the rock in the dark ages
>is what makes the climb, rather than the climb itself…
>Well that shows a pretty poor understanding of climbing...
No it doesn't. Just shows you don't agree with him. But I do.

>On 21/12/2005 onsight wrote:
>>At least they are doing the work!
>I totally agree that the vast majority of rebolting work has been worthwhile.
>My major concern is when they start touching the popular mega-classics
>(many of which were never dangerous to begin with) and it's suddenly decided
>that every fixed piece needs to be replaced with a glue-in ring, rather
>than just replacing those pieces where your life really depends on them.
I understand your concern Simey. It doesn't concern me. I don't think it has really been shown there is a problem for starters.
simey
22/12/2005
7:35:36 AM
On 22/12/2005 Onsight wrote:
>No it doesn't. Just shows you don't agree with him. But I do.

If you don't agree with the fact that the history entwined in climbs (and the protection they offer) doesn't signficantly make a climb, how come you have just produced a coffee table book which highlights examples of this around the world, such as run-out bolted routes on the slate quarries, or placing knot protection in Eastern Europe?


rodw
22/12/2005
7:56:14 AM

>Well that shows a pretty poor understanding of climbing, given that the
>nature of climbing protection is inextricably linked to the climbing experience
>(unless you top-rope all the time).

I guess when I do a route I remember the moves not what type of fixed gear I clipped, call me strange, but I thought the sport was called "rock" climbing....but in bowing down to your wealth of climbing experience and uncanny level of understanding of what other people climb for, ill just keep my inexperienced, head in the sand comments to myself.:)
simey
22/12/2005
8:48:00 AM
A climb like "I Must Go Down to the Sea Again" in The Blue Mountains would be a good route irrespective of how it was bolted, but the funky fixed gear Claw placed makes it even more memorable... the equivalent of dancing to good music but then taking E's to enhance the experience.
climberman
22/12/2005
9:03:55 AM
On 22/12/2005 simey wrote:
>A climb like "I Must Go Down to the Sea Again" in The Blue Mountains would
>be a good route irrespective of how it was bolted, but the funky fixed
>gear Claw placed makes it even more memorable... the equivalent of dancing
>to good music but then taking E's to enhance the experience.


That's quite a funny analogy. Scary Green Monsters just across the creek must be like dancing on acid then. Quite strong acid.

Richard
22/12/2005
1:19:07 PM
On 21/12/2005 simey wrote:
>it would be good to
>see another heritage-listed route in the lower grades... maybe Cassandra
>(oh that's right, that's been completely altered, despite the fact that
>it was never considered a dangerous route in its original state).

I am not sure this is a very good example of a route being "changed" by being rebolted. OK, I only climbed it once pre rebolt, and once after, but it seemed a very similar climbing experince to me. In fact, my distinct impression was it actually had fewer (but still well located and sufficent) bolts after the re-bolt.
climbingjac
22/12/2005
1:47:30 PM
On 21/12/2005 simey wrote:
>My major concern is when they start touching the popular mega-classics
>(many of which were never dangerous to begin with) and it's suddenly decided
>that every fixed piece needs to be replaced with a glue-in ring, rather
>than just replacing those pieces where your life really depends on them.

I am not a fan of routes being bolted - or rebolted - in such a fashion that you cannot afford for any given bolt to fail. OK I understand the concept of spacing the bolts out the further above the ground you get, but if you are spacing them to the point where a climber will deck if the top bolt fails, well that's just negligent in my book. If we rebolt in the fashion suggested (ie upgrading maybe only one bolt on the route) then you better hope nothing goes wrong with that bolt, coz all those below it are rusting into oblivion.
Wendy
22/12/2005
2:20:53 PM
We are jumping up and down on a dead horse here ...

Whilst we are generally in agreement, Simey, I am amused that when I suggested watchtower crack had a bomber belay if you carried big gear, you professed it unreasonable to expect people to own/carry such gear and a few pitons were necessary, but it's ok to expect them to own/carry them up Procul? I know which one I'd prefer to have the extra weight and bulk on! Despite my amusement, I'm sure it is an unecessary bolt.

Jonesy
22/12/2005
5:00:10 PM
On 21/12/2005 chris wrote:
>Re the rebolting of Mind arthritis....
>apparently the final piece of gear, the peg, held body weight, but probably
>not a fall.
>
>I would be interested to hear how simey and jonesy would replace such
>"body weight only" placements?

I wouldn't replace it - I'd go back and climb it without the peg. Just like they do in england when a peg rips and someone is able to climb the line in finer style.

shaggy
24/12/2005
12:39:09 AM
On 22/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:

>I wouldn't replace it - I'd go back and climb it without the peg. Just
>like they do in england when a peg rips and someone is able to climb the
>line in finer style.

What is "finer" style? Lucky you didn't fall 'cause then you wouldn't be able to brag about it?
julian
24/12/2005
8:37:51 AM
Shaun, perhaps if you don't undertsand a particular comment you could just humbly ask.

or perhaps it is just a front to un-hoster your Smith & Wessen key board.

kindest regards

julian

shaggy
24/12/2005
10:09:40 AM
Julian, there is no need to patronise me, I understood exactly what Chris was saying.
I am just sick of people concidering 'bold' being a 'finer' style, and that the 'English' style of climbing greatly under equiped routes is somehow a greater form of climbing.
BoaredOfTheRings
24/12/2005
10:21:03 AM
On 24/12/2005 shaggy wrote:

>I am just sick of people concidering 'bold' being a 'finer' style, and
>that the 'English' style of climbing greatly under equiped routes is somehow
>a greater form of climbing.

So what your saying is if you bang in a bolt where the peg was then that's just as good a style as if it was climbed without??

rodw
24/12/2005
11:23:11 AM
Im with shaggy, what a load of egotistical BS, Im sure a lot of hard men (and women) could climb many a route without clipping bolts or placing lots of gear...does that mean everytime someone does that we just pull the unused bolt?? cause mr(s) legend didnt use it so the rest of us lesser mortals are not allowed to as well?

julian
24/12/2005
11:58:13 AM
Shaun, I hear your point. And I apologise for coming across in a patronising manner. You are right, that was un-called for.

You have taken a snide shot at Chris for what reason. Do you know him? It just seemed like a sideways method of saying exactly what you have just said very succinctly. That said, I humbly accept you criticism.

I think what Chris is trying to say, albeit not well delivered, is that the route in question has been changed from its original style, in the sense of boldness, or whatever else is encompassed by the term ' finer', and that this has diminished it for those who enjoy that style of climbing. This includes me.

Climbing protection, or safety as such, is becoming homogenous, and this is being retrospectively applied to routes that have had many ascents in there old incarnation. Why? It means there are fewer routes for people like Chris and myself to enjoy.

And if go and do a first ascent in a style that I enjoy, is it going to be 'homogenised' 10 years down the track because somebody wants there grandmother to enjoy it as well?

I agree that replacing the peg in this instance is a difficult predicament. How do you replace a piece of dodgy fixed gear???? But try and see it from Chris’s perspective in that his experience has now being marred. It is not the same route. Just because a route does not appeal to the consumer masses, it does not validate changing it into something more palatable, which in this case it has. Logically, it is equally valid to go the other direction, although probably less popular.

Climbing is largely a mental sport in one way or another. Staying focused in light of facing a large fall is a formidable skill, and applies whether the bolt is at you knee or 5m below, or if you are unsure whether the gear will hold etc etc. This is just one way of pushing your limit. And you are right; it is no more valid than somebody who does not like this style of climbing.

The point here is not what a greater form of climbing is. What is at issue is the changing of a route from one style to another.

Climbing encapsulates many different styles, none of which is more valid than another. I for one would like to keep it that way.

Kindest regards

Julian
BoaredOfTheRings
24/12/2005
11:58:45 AM
On 24/12/2005 rodw wrote:
>Im with shaggy, what a load of egotistical BS, Im sure a lot of hard men
>(and women) could climb many a route without clipping bolts or placing
>lots of gear...does that mean everytime someone does that we just pull
>the unused bolt?? cause mr(s) legend didnt use it so the rest of us lesser
>mortals are not allowed to as well?
>
>
Very simplistic view, but I think you've missed the point completely! Nobody is saying eliminate a bolt and chop it, although I'm all for chopping bolts where good natural gear is nearby, but that's off topic. Why does it have to be safe, it's bloody Rock Climbing!!!! Or is that what gym bunny weekenders demand of this "sport".

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There are 194 messages in this topic.

 

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