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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 9 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 194
Author
Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!
kieranl
14/01/2006
10:58:45 PM
I refrained from commenting in this thread while it was dealing with Mind Arthritis because I have never done that climb and am not likely to and I haven't talked to Chris Shepherd about the climb.
As regards Kachoong, I'm a bit flabbergasted. I've done a lot of climbing in that area over the last six months but haven't seen any evidence of new rap anchors - must be fairly new. Crossdresser suggests the bolts have been in since October so I must not have been at the top of Kachoong since then.
I'll try and catch up with some of the people who might have been responsible over the next few days.
I don't normally have much problem with abseil anchors. I think they are generally preferable to people trashing walk-down descents but this sounds a tad excessive.
Anyhow one good conversation will probably shed more light than pages of chockstone.
Will keep you posted (no pun intended :-) )

Mike Graham
15/01/2006
10:32:45 AM
On 14/01/2006 simey wrote:
>Mike,
>Wow, I had never heard of blind-folded abseils for placing bolts. It is
>certainly an interesting approach for keeping first ascents honest.
>
>Although Jim Erikson once said "Ultimate climbs are always done by dubious
>methods", it it is great to hear about bold routes established in a really
>stylish way. I would never have given Ride Like the Wind the same amount
>of respect if you had rap-inspected the line before climbing it.
>
>I was also interested in your comments about Moorhead having a very strong
>ground-up ethic. My impression of Mark is that of a genius and visionary
>climber, but dodgy as hell (similar to Mike Law). It sounds like Mark not
>only relaxed his ground-up approach in later years but also toyed with
>every other indiscretion in climbing (dodgy pre-placed gear, reachy bolts,
>dogging, chipping, under-grading, multi-day seiges). I'm sure his humorous
>introduction in Carrigan's Arapiles guide had quite a few self-truths throughout
>it.
>
>At least there were some characters climbing in the 80s. Climbing seems
>to have become a little more sterile in recent years, with a few of the
>re-bolting efforts another step towards that sterilisation.
>
>
Simon, it seems when it come to placing bolts honesty can have a few different shades. That experiment for me was the only time it was used. Thinking back I remember that placement having a pretty good one hand release. Perhaps a power drill could have be used on the lead? Guaranteed I would of tried that first. Funny it supports my argument not to do a route before its time.

I had to sleep on the comments regarding Mark. I hope this tactic we employed didn’t cause a radical shift in his values. I did catch an earlier comment that he said “Ethics are like the weather” I can picture him saying that in a cheeky way. I don’t know how many seasons he continued to climb there since my last seeing him until his passing. I don’t think it was many? Perhaps it was the weather?

I do know that Arapiles with all its steep terrain is quite conducive to pre-placement of protection. I read on the SCV Tjuringa thread there was an assumption of Tobin pre-placing the questionable pin on the roof and hence pre-inspecting the pitch. My knee jerk reaction was no way in hell! But I don’t want to put my foot in my mouth. He had a reputation of doing some pretty hare ball things to the point of being unbelievable. I would venture to say he aided out the roof to place that pin. To swing back on topic, Should there be a bolt there now? I don’t know

Tobin was real excited about that route from the last conversation I had with him. I’m sure he would not want it to fall into obscurity.

nmonteith
16/01/2006
9:04:19 AM
On 13/01/2006 uwhp510 wrote:
>What exactly is wrong with evaluating gear, including pitons and bolts,
>which you always have to evaluate anyway? Arapiles is a TRAD crag, hence
>the skill of gear evaluation is important.

The problem i see is that if you evalute a piton or a bolt on lead and discover it it shite there is absolutely
nothing you can do to fix it! With trad gear you can fiddle around and get it to seat better or put in mulitple
equalized pieces. If a pins falls out in your hand you're stuffed unlessyou carry a hammer with you! (retro
60s climbers!)

shiltz
16/01/2006
11:01:46 AM
If you are climbing a trad route and reach a point where you are run-out with only shitty gear options you make a decision. You either climb on or you climb down (or perhaps you scream for a top rope, helicopter, mattress, etc). You might fiddle around for ages before making this call but ultimately those are the options.
When you climb up to a pin or bolt you have exactly the same decision to make. Sure, you might swear a bit and wish it was better but it doesn't change anything.

oweng
16/01/2006
12:05:38 PM
On 16/01/2006 shiltz wrote:
>If you are climbing a trad route and reach a point where you are run-out
>with only shitty gear options you make a decision. You either climb on
>or you climb down (or perhaps you scream for a top rope, helicopter, mattress,
>etc). You might fiddle around for ages before making this call but ultimately
>those are the options.
>When you climb up to a pin or bolt you have exactly the same decision
>to make. Sure, you might swear a bit and wish it was better but it doesn't
>change anything.

The sight of a bolt or piton above me would be more likely to lure me to climb through a difficult section, as I could see what I would assume to be a good piece of gear coming up. I would be unlikely to climb through the same difficult section ( that I might not be able to down climb) if I could not see any natural pro options from below (and there was no bolt or piton to lure me up).

A bad bolt or piton can I think lure people to situations they would not reach if they were uncertain about what trad gear may appear.


kieranl
16/01/2006
12:27:15 PM
On 16/01/2006 oweng wrote:
>
>A bad bolt or piton can I think lure people to situations they would not
>reach if they were uncertain about what trad gear may appear.
>
Fixed gear that is known to be poor should be mentioned in the route description. That's probably relevant to the fuss about Mind Arthritis. Jonesy, in the initial post in this thread makes it clear that he wasn't expecting the final peg to be poor and in a later post says that Chris Shepherd knew that it wasn't good. I don't have much time for that sort of "gamesmanship". If you want to place a crap peg instead of a bolt that's OK but you are obligated to tell people.
Sure, the quality of fixed gear can deteriorate over time but in general people have a right to know whether the fixed piece beckoning them on is a haven or a trap. You shouldn't have to get yourself in deep before finding out.

Nottobetaken
16/01/2006
1:49:29 PM
On 16/01/2006 kieranl wrote:
>Fixed gear that is known to be poor should be mentioned in the route description.
>Sure, the quality of fixed gear can deteriorate over time but in general
>people have a right to know whether the fixed piece beckoning them on is
>a haven or a trap. You shouldn't have to get yourself in deep before finding
>out.

I disagree. This relies far too much on the guidebook author to accurately describe each route. Given that the author is probably never going to climb every route at a place like the Mount, (though they've probably done a fair few anyway) - some of the descriptions will always be based on second-hand knowledge, previous guide descriptions, or even guess work.

Simey & Glenn’s selected guide for instance is a great guidebook, written by two guys that have had a long and close relationship with Arapiles. A lot of the descriptions are exactly what they say they are – but there’s also a lot of potentially dangerous routes that give no warning whatsoever. I remember on my first Arapiles trip doing Auto de Fe – first time I had used RPs so I got a bit gripped on the 2nd pitch – but pulled through it. Fair enough – the guide (albeit Louise’s at the time) and the reputation suggested that it could be a tad exciting. The next day I went out and launched up The British Beat. Nothing in the guide mentioning that this could be remotely high-pulse whatsoever (and there still isn’t) – but I found it way more out there than Auto.

In Simey’s guide nothing suggests that you might take a 10m crater into the slab if you choose to launch into the 2nd pitch of Tjuringa (and come off), or (like in Gordy’s 330 of the best guide) – that ‘a 20m groundfall is a distinct possibility’ on Breezin’.

Similarly – how many grade 20/21 leaders have unknowingly launched up the first pitch of Mental Debris onsight, Strangers Eliminate, or Rats Alley? Not exactly clip ups now - are they?…

In the end (given we don’t have anything else) it’s got to come down to the climber attempting the route – their own judgement, climbing skills, research and penchant for dribbling – in making the decision to do a particular climb. Those factors are the things that are going to direct how ‘deep’ you go – or not. Still – it would be nice to have a bit of warning sometimes! Bring in the ‘heart flutter’ icon ala RockFax – now there’s a sensible idea...

shaggy
16/01/2006
3:08:44 PM
I think things are getting a little from the point here, the point, and also Kieren's was, that when there is fixed gear, and there is nothing else available around, it should be good, but, BUT, if for whatever reason the F/A or whoever, thinks that that particular gear should remain, that it should be written up.
Personally I think It's stupid, and that all fixed gear should be good, after all, thats why it is there, because no good trad placments are available.

On 16/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:

>
The next day I went out and
>launched up The British Beat. Nothing in the guide mentioning that this
>could be remotely high-pulse whatsoever (and there still isn’t)

Well, It does have 2 bolts in it! And no, you probably wouldn't deck if your belayer was paying attention!


>Similarly – how many grade 20/21 leaders have unknowingly launched up
>the first pitch of Mental Debris onsight, Strangers Eliminate, or Rats
>Alley? Not exactly clip ups now - are they?…

Cant speak for Mental Debris, but strangers, you can see from the ground that there is not much gear in it, and after doing it, yes, there is as little and useless gear in it as you can see from the ground.
Rats alley, well there is a warning in the guide, and infact, I think there is ample gear in it, if you know what your doing, and yes you should, if your leading that grade.

shiltz
16/01/2006
3:24:28 PM
The thing is that you don't assume the fixed gear will be good. If you read the guidebook and see the FA was 15-20 years ago and the fixed gear is a carrot and a pin then you don't expect too much.
Recent beta is the best insurance in this case but if you don't have it you just have to proceed with caution.
I'm impressed that Neil and others have the energy and motivation to replace dodgy gear. No one was doing this until recently in any organized way. People occasionally replaced gear on routes they specifically wanted to climb. However, unless I know something has been re-equipped recently I don't make any assumptions.

nmonteith
16/01/2006
3:31:11 PM
On 16/01/2006 shiltz wrote:
>However, unless I know something has been re-equipped recently I
>don't make any assumptions.

And even then you still need to treat ALL fixed gear with caution. SCV attempts to do the best job they
can - but things can and do go wrong occasionally. Natural rock is not human engineered so we really
have no way of knowing if it is bomber or not. Entire cliffs do fall down every now and then.

adski
16/01/2006
3:51:37 PM
On 16/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:
>In the end (given we don’t have anything else) it’s got to come down to
>the climber attempting the route – their own judgement, climbing skills,
>research and penchant for dribbling – in making the decision to do a particular
>climb.


Crossdresser, thanks for pointing out that I may have a penchant for dribbling, It's something I did not realise but may be true as I found Auto da Fe, British Beat, Rats Alley and Strangers Eliminate all very satisfying.

I'll have to go hunting out those other routes you speak of for more satisfaction.

PS apologies to One Day for insinuating you were trolling earlier!
Nottobetaken
16/01/2006
3:55:35 PM
>On 16/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:
>..... The British Beat. Nothing in the guide mentioning that this
>could be remotely high-pulse whatsoever (and there still isn’t)

On 16/01/2006 shaggy wrote:
>Well, It does have 2 bolts in it! And no, you probably wouldn't deck if
>your belayer was paying attention!

Ride Like the Wind has 2 bolts in it as well - but that doesn't mean it's safe!!!

On 16/01/2006 adski wrote:
>Crossdresser, thanks for pointing out that I may have a penchant for dribbling,
>It's something I did not realise but may be true as I found Auto da Fe,
>British Beat, Rats Alley and Strangers Eliminate all very satisfying.

As did I - but I'm talking from the perspective of a 21 max onsighter. Generally speaking most in that category would find these routes pretty exciting. But lets get back to going on and on about pitons vs bolts, museum relics, and how someone's going to pull the newly installed anchor and P on Kachoong (probably placed by a bunch of raiding French posers for a cigarette commercial no doubt)...

shaggy
16/01/2006
4:20:59 PM
On 16/01/2006 Crossdresser wrote:
>Ride Like the Wind has 2 bolts in it as well - but that doesn't mean it's
>safe!!!

Yes true, but BB is only 8 Meters!
uwhp510
17/01/2006
12:28:41 PM

>The sight of a bolt or piton above me would be more likely to lure me
>to climb through a difficult section, as I could see what I would assume
>to be a good piece of gear coming up. I would be unlikely to climb through
>the same difficult section ( that I might not be able to down climb) if
>I could not see any natural pro options from below (and there was no bolt
>or piton to lure me up).

A flaring seam that looks like a bomber crack from below can have the exact same effect (eg Immaculate Deception at booroomba).

I don't buy the argument of babying climbers on trad routes. When climbing on gear you must make your own judgements; when deciding to do the route, deciding how to arrange your protection, deciding to continue up or downclimb/loweroff. It is a VERY rare piece of gear that is so dodgy that it can't be lowered off if you don't want to climb above it.

Mike Graham
17/01/2006
1:13:38 PM
Let’s keep the adventure in this endeavor alive!

Say no to beta™

oweng
17/01/2006
1:56:16 PM
On 17/01/2006 uwhp510 wrote:
>
>A flaring seam that looks like a bomber crack from below can have the
>exact same effect (eg Immaculate Deception at booroomba).
>
>I don't buy the argument of babying climbers on trad routes. When climbing
>on gear you must make your own judgements; when deciding to do the route,
>deciding how to arrange your protection, deciding to continue up or downclimb/loweroff.
> It is a VERY rare piece of gear that is so dodgy that it can't be lowered
>off if you don't want to climb above it.

Good point, even the dodgiest piton / bolt would normally take body weight, and hence could be dogged / lowered off. The real dager would be in a piton / bolt that looked ok, but would not hold a fall.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
17/01/2006
3:59:38 PM
>It is a VERY rare piece of gear that is so dodgy that it can't be lowered off if you don't want to climb above it.
Thats scary advice IMO.
I have lowered off true mank (including hooks) at times, but I have never felt comfortable about it.
The practise of 'resting' on trad gear is also one I would not condone, as I have had too many placements that I considered OK for the task rip under bodyweight during my aid excursions.
Some stuff is bomber, but it never ceases to amaze me just how little shifting some apparently 'OK' pieces will take.
one day hero
17/01/2006
5:23:30 PM
On 16/01/2006 adski wrote:
>PS apologies to One Day for insinuating you were trolling earlier!

Actually I'm deeply ashamed that I didn't come up with this myself. As always the best ideas are the simple ones.
I shall redouble my efforts.
climberman
17/01/2006
10:18:11 PM
On 17/01/2006 Mike Graham wrote:
>Let’s keep the adventure in this endeavor alive!
>
> Say no to beta™

Can I hang onto that line ? - very nice. Very nice indeedy.

cantcrimp
18/01/2006
9:19:34 AM
Well back to the original topic, the lower offs above Kachoong are no more. I was talking to someone who was at araps over the weekend and things are a changing. Many of the bolts that have been placed to replace fixed gear are on the out, or have already been removed.

What is up with a bolt in the traverse of Orestes? You are on jugs and there is a bomber cam placement next to the old peg… when there was one! What happened to the adventure? I would like some exciting routes left for me to climb. If you don't like that sort of climbing just don't do it.

As for the bolt on the face of Kachoong I am not that fussed that it is there. Looks like it will be gone soon and replaced with a peg. Replacing the peg over and over will scaring the rock more than the bolt. Maybe we should use expansion bolts rather than gule-ins as they are far easier to replace.

What we really need to do is come to a consensus on what is to be done. We cannot continue to place and remove bolts at random. We need to seek assistance on the placement of lower offs and replacing fixed gear rather than one person, or a few, making that decision for us as a whole. If we can reach an agreement before they are placed than we can save a lot of time, energy and cash replacing new bolts and than spending hours waxing lyrically about it on the internet. This goes for the removal as well. Who shoud decide? The comunity as a whole. We as climbers do not wholly own the rock and this sort of defacement could put our access at jeopardy.

I would rather spend my time on chockstone getting as much beta as possible so I can dog a route into submission rather than write up weekly reports on where I have found new bolts!

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