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When do climbers replace their gear? wires-cams...


..::- Chris -::..

31-Jul-2003
1:19:27 PM

When do most climbers decide to retire a peace of equipment ??

I have asked this question to various climbers over a number of years and get greatly different responses almost every time.....

When do you know you need to replace your gear?

It is obvious that if you see your wire has small broken wires along the length of it, then maybe it needs replacing??
if you Cam has taken a fall in the wrong direction and bent it solid. Or is it a certain number of falls....??

Allot of people say you should replace your gear when you no longer trust the qualify or stability of your gear ??

I have been climbing (outdoors/leading) for around 7 years. Four of those years i was hitting it hard, going outdoors every week, falling occasionally no more or no less than the average climber, setting up top ropes etc etc, been caught out in the rain a few times etc. But I check my gear routinely looking for what I suppose would be weakness's in the structure. I don't see any cracks or broken bits of wires, maybe some deep scratches out of some wires of fallen on but nothing on the main length of wire. I have heard of people getting gear X-rayed for stress fractures, Does anyone here do that ??

I'm keen to hear how other climbers go about checking their equipment (more hardware than ropes) also slings spectra etc etc ??

Also what people's opinions are of dropping gear (accidentally and we've all done it once!!) from cliffs onto rock at what height do people retire gear?? Eg My partner recently dropped a draw off the top of little thor 20ish meters onto rock should she retire the draw ?? It looks fine....

Thanks in advance
Chris.....


nmonteith

31-Jul-2003
1:46:45 PM

If you can't read the strength rating on gear anymore than perhaps it is time to retire it.. that my general rule. As soon as wires get spiky and start priking my hands i retire them to my 'aid only' rack. Same deal with cams. If they bend more than about 80' than its time to retire them.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

31-Jul-2003
2:38:04 PM

On 31/07/2003 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>When do most climbers decide to retire a peace of equipment ??

My response is similar to nmonteith plus the following;

>if you Cam has taken a fall in the wrong direction and bent it solid.
>Or is it a certain number of falls....??

Number of falls only relates to ropes and slings for me. I would resling a cam if the fall was bad enough, but only retire the cam if it was obviously damaged and not repairable.
>
>Allot of people say you should replace your gear when you no longer trust
>the qualify or stability of your gear ??

Yep, ... peace of mind (re gear) is a prerequisite for enjoyable climbing, but I think the manufacturers have built in very conservative safety factors.
As an example I have used retired old climbing ropes as 'snatchem straps' for debogging 4WD vehicles, and been amazed at the forces they have withstood.

> But I check my gear routinely

Good practice. I do it regularly.

>looking for what I suppose would be weakness's in the structure. I don't
>see any cracks or broken bits of wires, maybe some deep scratches out of
>some wires of fallen on but nothing on the main length of wire. I have
>heard of people getting gear X-rayed for stress fractures, Does anyone
>here do that ??

I worked for an institution once that did this for peace of mind. I doubt the process was done with the correct xray equipment (dental xray gear), and thus regard the results as inconclusive.
I would think that to xray the gear would be as expensive as buying new stuff anyway, so don't see much advantage in it, unless you have access to the right equipment cheaply.

>I'm keen to hear how other climbers go about checking their equipment
>(more hardware than ropes) also slings spectra etc etc ??

Climbing specification nylon slings have a 'feel' when new. Once old I would compare 'feel', colour and stiffness. If excessively faded or stiff I would consider them past their use by date. I do not know if spectra gets stiff with age though, so I suspect spectra runners would last longer. All bets are off however if they have not been stored out of sunlight etc
>
>Also what people's opinions are of dropping gear (accidentally and we've
>all done it once!!) from cliffs onto rock at what height do people retire
>gear??

In my opinion steel krabs would be OK for 2m unless gate action was affected, because I have seen film footage of how Stubai treats their merchandise prior to delivery!, but I dont know about aluminium.
I used to consider it a risk to re-use them but aluminium krabs are made from different techniques these days compared to the old style 'casting' method used, with its associated potential flaws.
An example of 'what is' dropping occurs when a climber takes a ground fall onto their gear. Dropping a krab from waist height onto rock is not treating it any worse than falling 5 metres onto it, and grinding it into the deck with your bodyweight/ribs. (see recent accidents posting) ...

Eg My partner recently dropped a draw off the top of little thor
>20ish meters onto rock should she retire the draw ?? It looks fine....

I would retire the krabs off the draw to waterbottle connector etc. If used for climbing then I would only consider them good for bodyweight aid climbing, and would clearly mark them for such.
It would be bad news if you ended up relying on suspect gear after a long runout ...


Paulie

1-Aug-2003
1:51:01 AM

I should definately replace some of my RPs :O I have rewired my Camalots once or twice depending on the piece (my #1s and 2s have been done twice). Aside from that I don't think I've retired anything really, just taken care of it all, not left in out in the rain, washed it all after sea cliff climbing etc etc.

kieranl

3-Aug-2003
11:09:15 PM

I find it's the climbing that sorts it out. If I start avoiding a piece of gear I retire it. There may have been no particular incident but I have lost faith in it without knowing why. It's probably just the age of the piece. You've got to trust your instincts.

dodgy

4-Aug-2003
11:00:29 AM

I always wondered about the "necessity" of scrapping gear that had been dropped,
I always figured the stuff had to be stronger than most of us give it credit for, or it
couldn't be trusted anyway. I mean, if a krab couldn't cope with a fall from the first clip on a route, I really might as well solo the lot...
Then there is this: from "Rock and Ice - Gear" (page 46)

"Conventional wisdom says that a carabiner that has been dropped must be retired, even when there are no signs of damage. Perhaps not.
In a test conducted by REI, thirty carabiner bodies (half ovals, half Ds) were each dropped six times onto a concrete floor from a height of 33 ft. (10 m). Following the drops, their open-gate strength was measured and compared to thirty control samples from the same production batch that had not been dropped. The statistical result was no loss of strength.
According to Chris Harmston, the quality assurance manager at Black Diamond, “I have test-broken hundreds of used, abused, and dropped ‘biners (even some that fell 3000 ft. (1000 m) from the top of the Salathe Wall on El Capitan). Never have I noticed any problem with these unless there is obvious visual damage to the ‘biner. While somewhat reassuring, this does not give you carte blanche to use carabiners that have been dropped a significant distance. Immediately retire any carabiner that is crooked, has deep indentations, or has a gate that doesn’t operate smoothly."

mikl law

4-Aug-2003
12:30:29 PM

If the gate is damaged you'd turf it, otherwise never (I've got about 130 krabs, most of which I've found. they look tatty, but people don't borrow them. Ever).

Gear is way way stronger than most placements.

Ropes and harnesses get looked carefully though

Mikl


Megan

4-Aug-2003
1:52:36 PM

Speaking of harnesses, when do people retire them? What makes you decide it's time for a new one? I've never come across a story of a harness failing in a fall or anything, but does anyone know of this actually happening? I've been climbing on my harness for 2 years now, often climbing at least once a week, and with a total of at least a couple of months of outdoor trips where I'm in the harness most of the day. On the other hand, I haven't had a huge number of lead falls in that time. The harness still looks fine, what's made me wonder about this is probably just the fact that I managed to win a harness a couple of weeks ago, and I'm wondering what to do with it.


nmonteith

4-Aug-2003
2:12:37 PM

Harness life shoudl be at least 5 years with intense useage. The only reason i have had to replace mine is when the abseil loop wears through becasue of biners clipped to them.

dodgy

4-Aug-2003
2:29:24 PM

The only recorded "failures" of harnesses have been due to incorrect tie-in (the guy tried to sue REI and lost) or chemical attack (also other nylon gear like ropes). Edelrid had some "mystery" failures of ropes; they failed with very small falls or under body weight. It was discovered that they had been stored in the boots of older cars with just the fumes from petrol attacking the nylon. (I think a similar thing was written up in Rock a while ago).
Harnesses a ridiculously strong, I reckon most harnesses could have a LandCruiser hand off the belay loop, and only really ever take a bit more than body weight.

But age may be an issue, to quote my favorite reference;
"We took an 11mm rope that was virtually unused and had been properly stored for about twenty years. To look at it, anyone would think that it was in great shape and probably wouldn't hestitate to climb on it. The rope held one UIAA/CEN drop."

Also from "Rock and Ice - Gear"; page 74

"PRESERVING YOUR HARNESS
I've seen climbers wearing old harnesses that were incredibly tattered and faded. Dumb move. Although age itself has little effect on the strength of nylon, wear and tear can seriously weaken it. The industry recommends that a harness be retired after two to three years of moderate use, or five years of minimal use. The date of manufacture is now placed on a label sewn to the lining.
All of the manufacturers recommend that a harness be retired after a serious fall because hidden damage can occur. Other causes for retirement include severe abrasion, torn stitching, a damaged buckle, or fading of the webbing.
Is a six or seven-year-old harness that's in good shape safe to climb in? Probably. Is it worth finding out? I don't think so. Limiting use to minimal load applications, such as top-roping, may be an acceptable alternative to trashing the harness. But the newer harnesses really are nicer than what was available back then.
The big killer for a harness, and possibly its valuable contents, is acid. Even the fumes can seriously weaken the nylon, without any visible damage. Keep your climbing equipment far away from car batteries and solvents at all times."

(this contradicts the age statement but twenty years IS pretty old for a harness)


nmonteith

4-Aug-2003
2:32:41 PM

The human body is quite a soft mushy easily damaged item. Your harness is your direct connection to your body - thus - i propose that harnesses don't take much serious damage from falls - or your body woudl be minced up. Ropes and slack woudl absorb most of the hard impact. Just a thought - i have no proof!


fruityarse

4-Aug-2003
2:42:16 PM

Question - most harnesses have metal or plastic buckles?

Current one - Petzl top of line - has metal buckels again.

My experience is having to retire harnesses due to rust on buckles with no falls, no damage - just nervous about too much rust!

dodgy

4-Aug-2003
3:24:45 PM

For climbing most buckles are aluminium alloy, for industrial use steel. Some alpine harnesses (eg. Black Diamond BOD) use plastic buckles on the leg loops in an "unloaded way. I'd be surprised if you would see rust on a rock harness buckle nowadays. And I don't think you will see plastic buckles in load areas for a while yet.
If you see a white buildup on alloy buckles this is the alloy "self protecting" and is not really the same as rust, the buildup stops as soon as the area is covered and doesn't "eat" the metal.

James

4-Aug-2003
5:40:40 PM

I remember reading somewhere in the past that the human body can only sustain 11-15kn of force before it 'breaks' (i.e. hips/spine/skeleton will simply snap in half at this force). I can't remember where this came from.
So does this mean the harness only needs to be able to hold 15kn of force (practically speaking). Who wants to test it??!

kieranl

4-Aug-2003
8:33:37 PM

The harness needs to be resilient. It has to take a lot of day-to-day abuse and still be there for you when you need it. Your rope has to absorb the impact; there is not enough room for a harness to have significant impact absorption. I probably replace my harness every 5 or 6 years. It's hard to judge when to do it. If in doubt, replace it.
Life is short and gear is cheap in comparison.

dodgy

5-Aug-2003
3:18:23 PM

The 12 kN maximum impact impact force was derived from military studies which showed the human body could briefly withstand fifteen times its own weight when a parachute opens. This limit is applied to the rope in the drop test, the impact force on the dummy cannot exceed 12 kN on the first drop (and the lower the better).

LGJ

4-Sep-2006
8:34:04 PM

I dropped a biner on the weekend. It's one of my two HMS/belay biners, and so I see it as a critical part of the system, unlike eg a wire gate off a draw. Basically I dropped it at a belay stance, and it tinkled down to settle about 3m below me.

My immediate thought was that I'd have to chuck it. My initial training was that if something was dropped more than 1m, out come the bolt cutters (that was a mine rescue team). I've been thinking on and off about it for the last couple of days though, still unsure whether I should chuck it or keep it.

I was going to ask the question, but I think I've come to a conclusion after reading the previous posts anyway. It does seem pretty unlikely that it would've sustained some kind of damage, so I think I'll keep on using it.


Phil Box

5-Sep-2006
8:26:11 AM

Black Diamond collected a huge swag of gear from the base of El Cap in Yosemite. This was gear that had been dropped over time from quite prodigious heights. They then subjected that gear to the same tests that they would for their own brand new gear.

Interestingly the aluminium gear tested full strength. The steel biners on the other hand failed more times than not. It seems that the aluminium has less mass than steel and is quite deal more ductile than steel.

You also need to ask yourself how they make aluminium bits of gear. They stamp it out with a gigantic hammer. Anything that you can do is far less than the stress they place on the gear during manufacture.

Me, unless it is physically damaged I will never retire my gear. For soft stuff like ropes they tend to get chopped by rockfall long before I need to retire it.

Federation Mountain Rescue in Queensland of which I am associated has kept records of every piece of equipment going back some 35 years. They recently had a 30 year old rope tested. The rope had been stored in a clean dry environment away from the sun when not in use. Any damage to the rope had been chopped off whenever the need arose and a record kept of each use and what was done to maintain it. The result was that the rope came up to about 70 percent new strength. Still well within requirements for an abseil rope.

The same was undertaken for very very old Whillans sit harnesses. The SES advised us that because the harnesses were more than 5 years old that we would have to chuck them out. We took exception to that arbitrary statement and so we tested them. The machine broke before the harness did. We still have these harnesses and a couple of the old guard still use them on occasion but most of us use new harnesses because we prefer them and not because some faceless beauracrat has decided that 5 years is a cutoff.

The difference between our aproach to risk management and the faceless beauracrats aproach is that we know what our gear will do due to a scientific testing regime whereas they are relying on simple timeframes. A timeframe aproach is flawed in this respect, a brand new piece of gear may in fact not be safe to use as it may be damaged in some way. We bought a brand new drum of rope and upon inspection we had to chop a section out due to a short coil being outside the drum and a forklift had run over it mashing it.

The thing is that your gear should past inspection each and every time you use it. Know what it will do and retire it when necessary or not.


dave h.

5-Sep-2006
6:41:01 PM

Phil,

would you have a link to BD's page on that test? Or is it not on the net... (not that I doubt what you're saying, I'd just be interested to read it myself).


Chalk Free

5-Sep-2006
8:16:49 PM

When I no longer have confidence in them.

There are 24 messages in this topic.