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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 57
Author
Gym climbing difficult tonight
dalai
9/09/2005
9:11:08 AM
On 9/09/2005 wyt91t wrote:
>Dalai whats the go with the tie method ?

I worked in the indoor climbing industry for 8 1/2 years, and had no issues when the clip and tie method was introduced.

Yes it does take a few extra minutes to teach the rethread figure 8. We also went to the trouble of teaching the correct belay technique whilst using a stitch plate, rather than the easier to teach - two hand reef the rope through method a few gyms used...

Both methods were deemed safer. One, eliminating the weak link in the connection (see Cheeseheads comment). Plus by teaching the correct belay technique AND the tie in which will be used if they progress to outdoors helps in setting good habits and techniques from the beginning hopefully allowing them a happy, safe and long climbing career...

As Kezza suggests also, the number of people as a percentage that didn't get it the first time was minimal. The few that didn't usually had partners or other students very willing to show and help them through the tie in. Which usually left you just a quick check of both the knot and the screwgate rather than a one on one epic lesson which you suggest. Also an incomplete figure 8 can be spotted easily from across a crowded gym, even with there back to you. Something that can't be done with double screwgates...

PS. Walls in Vic are a lot higher so there is more climbing than clipping anyway... ;-)

dr_fil_good
9/09/2005
9:12:28 AM
Wow!!! I'm seeing a lot of warning signals here!!! Two things:

1. perhaps your school should have someone responsible for the climbing wall who is an adult.

2. perhaps your school should have a preventative maintenance program - say, check the anchors and ropes for wear, sheath slippage etc. weekly and check the wall for wear monthly and all systems should be checked if a leader falls - esp. your bolts

Also, something that comes to hand that hasn't been pointed out is the Melbourne gym styles where they use the re-threaded fig of eight (good if at the end of the rope as I'm presuming) and the fig of 8 on a bight with the bina (bad) ... if that fails you're doomed - fig of 8's are only really good for one standing end - when you have loads on both ends of a knot a alpine butterfly would be much better (this is what we have in the gym in adelaide - belayer, rope over topanchor, alpine w/ bina, then re-threaded fig of 8 ...

just some food for thought

sabu
9/09/2005
11:14:20 AM
On 9/09/2005 dr_fil_good wrote:
>Wow!!! I'm seeing a lot of warning signals here!!! Two things:
>
>1. perhaps your school should have someone responsible for the climbing
>wall who is an adult.

check, times two!!!

>2. perhaps your school should have a preventative maintenance program
>- say, check the anchors and ropes for wear, sheath slippage etc. weekly
>and check the wall for wear monthly and all systems should be checked if
>a leader falls - esp. your bolts

we don't have a regular program to check all the gear. though we do keep an eye on the ropes etc. our bolts do not have regular use or checks i don't know how one would go about checking their safety, any ideas?
one thing to keep in mind is that, our school wall is not like a gym as it only gets used twice a week, so wear and tear only occurs over a long period of time.
Thanks for the "food for thought"!!
Sabu
chris
9/09/2005
3:23:44 PM
Somebody wrote that adding an extra screwgate is adding a point of failure.
I would also suggest that the knot tying is a point of failure.... sure the knot is foolproof, but unfortunately the knot-tier is not!! (too many not/knots there).

I did a course a couple of years ago which was about error management in clinical medicine (and air travel as well). One of the major messages of the course was that human error is inevitable. Human error is the most important fault in any system to be accounted for.
When done correctly, the reality is that both biner/biner systems and knot/biner attachments are absolutely bomber, and you could hang a whole lot more than the average 80kg bumbly from them.
The problem is of course the human factor.

I would assume the backup to the human component in the knot/screwgate system is the screwgate.
The backup in the biner/biner system is the second screwgate.
Human error is hopefully reduced for the biner/biner method by only having to remember one way to attach to the rope (ie using a screwgate).
Using a screwgate is usually easier for a beginner than tying a knot, because most people have used a screw/thread in the past (eg to put lids on a jam jar). Conversely, tying a figure of eight is a "new engram", and takes a little while for people to learn.

The other way to reduce human error is to introduce checks and balances in a system. The rockclimbing check is for your belayer to check your tie-in. It is fairly basic to check that the screwgates are clipped and screwed up. Unfortunately for the knot/biner system, this assumes a high skill level of the belayer... ie the belayer must allways be able to recognise a properly tied figure of eight.
The result is that the biner/biner system minimizes human error by making the system easy to use, easy to check, and easy to teach. The biner/knot system is good for experienced climbers, but for beginners, is harder to use, harder to check, and harder to teach.

One of the other problems in error management is that experienced people become overconfident.... who has never tied a figure of eight incorrectly, and set off to climb only to see that they had a granny knot hanging off their harness? Conversely, I have often forgotten to screw up my screw gates, so this system is also prone to "overconfidence error".

Perhaps the safest method is to use two twist-lock biners, which are basically failsafe, as they cannot be attached to the rope without being locked. I suppose the problem with them is they seem to wear out quickly.

Of course it's all academic for outdoor climbing, because a higher level of skill is assumed, and for some reason we have settled for everybody just being tied into the rope. What this means, I suppose, is that all of the gym systems in reality are "oversafe", because you only really need one tie-in point.
The second attachment is just an example of a good check and balance built into any safety system.

Hope I haven't bored everyone to death with this "error analysis" of rope attachment.
dalai
9/09/2005
3:53:45 PM
The fact that the climber has to think about what they are doing with tying the knot is a bonus. Rather than having two clips which take little thought in how to deal with, the knot requires the climber to focus on rethreading.

Tell the person in Sydney who was badly injured years ago (I've been out of the industry nearly 4 years so can't suggest other accidents) by clipping the screwgates into either the gear loop or watch attached to their harness (I can't recall exactly which, but the result was the same)! People can easily without thinking clip the biners into the wrong spot as above or into each other reducing the attachment to one biner.

All systems are not perfect as human error will always be a risk. By having two different methods hopefully means they will have got one right...
patto
9/09/2005
4:39:37 PM
On 9/09/2005 chris wrote:
>I did a course a couple of years ago which was about error management
>in clinical medicine (and air travel as well). One of the major messages
>of the course was that human error is inevitable.
I wouldn't go as far as saying inevitable because, with enough checking built in you can remove it. For example I believe I can safely say with 100% certainty that I will never go off to uni/work without remembering to put some clothes on.

>who has never tied a figure of eight incorrectly,
>and set off to climb only to see that they had a granny knot hanging off
>their harness?
I have never set off to climb with a incorrectly time figure of eight. The reason why the firgure of eight is so good is that it is extremely easy to see check that it is tied correctly. Sure a few times I have been chatting to my belayer and tied the knot incorrectly but I knew was wrong immediately.


I agree with the others. Personally I know that a biner/biner system would make me much lazier about my tie ins. As soon as people get lazy people make mistakes. It is my belief that a Fig8/biner is much better.
chris
9/09/2005
4:50:09 PM
Interesting thought, "by having two different methods people will have to get one right."
I suppose this is just another check and balance.
Hard to know which is the more likely error without actually testing it in real life, but who could be bothered doing the study. Might be a good thesis for somebody interested in the area?
Anyway, after reading my own and everbody elses messages, I can only come to the conclusion that we all seriously need to get a life, and stop rabbitting on so much!
Can't wait for the weekend!!!

Climboholic
9/09/2005
6:08:02 PM
Sabu, maybe I misunderstood something about the setup at your school. But wouldn't your problem of melted slings be solved by clipping a biner through the sling (preferably 2 slings) then clipping the lead rope through the biner.
Also you seem to consider your safety less important than that of the other kids. Why not be as safe as possible when your in such an easily controlable environment?

As for the tie in setup at cliffhanger, there is a drawback that hasn't been touched on. When both tied and clipped in a loop is created between the two attachments and the harness. This loop can then get caught over a big jug. Tired newb can't get themself off and an epic rescue ensues.
This happened to me when I was instructing climbing at a camp in California. A little girl got caught on a jug and I had to do the hardest rescue I did that summer. (There were some interesting rescues)

Back to kerroxapithecus's original post. If your interested enough in climbing to post to forums on chockstone it won't be long til your climbing outdoors. When I started a few years ago I went to Vic Ranges every saturday morning as a social thing to get my mind off uni. When I went to buy my first harness I was going to get one without gear loops because I had no intentions of climbing outdoors. Fortunately the salesperson talked me into getting one with gear loops. Just 3 years later I've climbed in some of the coolest places in the world and I'm loving it more and more. The bug will bite. Outdoors is just a natural progression.

Climboholic
9/09/2005
6:12:40 PM
Sorry Sabu, I undertand your setup now. The rope doesn't run through the sling just over it when it's going over the bar.
Doesn't the rope over the bar create a lot of rope drag? How about a pulley?

Sabu
10/09/2005
1:12:23 PM
On 9/09/2005 skip wrote:
>Sorry Sabu, I undertand your setup now. The rope doesn't run through the
>sling just over it when it's going over the bar.

yea obviously the rope ran over the sling while a heavy person was being let down fairly quickly. we'll watch a lot more closely for that now.

>Doesn't the rope over the bar create a lot of rope drag? How about a pulley?

na the rope is just put over once, not wrapped around, it's very smooth and because the wall is so short (7m) there isn't that much rope hanging off the bar.
Just like to add about the safety at our school our (adult) coach just replaced all the most used ropes, he (on his own) decided they were a little old and replaced them all!!

kerroxapithecus
10/09/2005
9:11:30 PM
On 9/09/2005 skip wrote:
>
>Back to kerroxapithecus's original post. If your interested enough in
>climbing to post to forums on chockstone it won't be long til your climbing
>outdoors.

There seems to be some people here who only climb indoors....?
I'm pretty sure I'll get around to trying it sometime.

>Just 3 years later I've climbed in some
>of the coolest places in the world and I'm loving it more and more. The
>bug will bite. Outdoors is just a natural progression.

That's really cool, sounds like you've had lots of great times. Here's hoping there's many more for you skip!

kerroxapithecus
12/09/2005
7:00:33 PM
On 9/09/2005 patto wrote:
>I believe I can safely say with
>100% certainty that I will never go off to uni/work without remembering
>to put some clothes on.
>
Great point man! Pity there's not as much public shame attached to causing death than there is in going out nooooood! Maybe there would be less accidents caused by negligence if we put those responsible on show for a naked public showing.

The fact that failure to do the act will result in certain occurrence (not merely a chance) of the undesired event counts as well I think. Forgetting to put on clothes means certain humiliation (unless of course one is some kind of exhibitionist) and probably an encounter with the law. I guess it's conceivable that you might go out in your slippers by mistake one day or forget to put your dentures in. (you've all got a set haven't you?)

Also the fact that we dress each and every day makes a difference. It's part of our daily routine. Having said that though, we may forget to brush our teeth much more readily than forgetting the duds. I think the reason is a combination of these things but it's a great analogy and something that we might try to replicate in some way in these HEM (Human Error Management) systems where process is as important as facility - as pointed out by Chris.

I think all human service businesses should have HEM systems in place. This should go a long way towards preventing accidents. The NSW Law Society is currently lobbying the NSW govt to ammend the legislation capping personal injury payouts that was brought in a couple of years ago. Not because personal injury lawyers want more money but because the society recognises the plight of people who have suffered great loss and need personal care around the clock for the rest of their lives and that it all costs a heap of money. Who's gonna pay? The legislation represents a gross limitation on people's rights to compensation. Afterall the insurance companies receive big premiums so that they can make proper and adequate payouts in the event of injury. Premiums haven't gone down since the legislation. Prevention is much better than litigation anyway and should help to reduce insurance premiums.

Whether any system that is repetitive is more efficient than one that is more varied and complex is also an interesting discussion point. Another good thesis there I think....plus a good business idea for your NEIS payment if you want to be an HEM system consultant. The govt will be looking for ways to sort this out and prevention programs will be the way of the future, in my opinion.

kerroxapithecus
12/09/2005
8:19:02 PM
Kitty-cat, thanks for your post. It helps a lot. I don't think our gym is even 10 mtrs. Seems like only about 6.

On 8/09/2005 kitty-cat wrote:
>
>I started out being scared of climbing in gyms with 10 metre walls (yup
>okay laugh all you want).

>I started out on real rock about 2 weeks ago
.....

There's hope for me then. My friend who I've been climbing with and I both have a height problem but funnily enough we don't think twice about getting on ski lifts which take us up much higher. I have a huge problem though with cliffs and don't like going near the edge of balconies. But I get a buzz when I go on the Sky Safari at the zoo.


IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/09/2005
8:02:38 PM
On 7/09/2005 kerroxapithecus wrote:
>Any thoughts on how some of you guys started?

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=2117&Replies=33&PagePos=0&Sort=&MsgPagePos=0


cliffhanger
16/09/2005
11:14:08 AM
mmmmmm..... This sounds so much like the "discussion" that's been going on between gym owners, wall builders, engineers and amusement ride operators since 1995 with the SF/47 Australian Standard draft for Artificial Climbing Structures. The "discussion" can go round and round for years and there will still be no agreement! Trust me i've been at every meeting since 1995!

I guess the closest thing we'll get to a difinitive answer on what is acceptable in a commercial climbing facility, will be AS2316 - Aritificial Climbing Structures, which will hopefully be finalised and issued January/February 2006.

In terms of the pros and cons and discussions of Cliffhangers systems and structures - don't be fooled by visuals - a piece of rope can look good and be "bad" or can look incredibly fluffy and "bad" but be quite sound - that's what we train our staff to look for. As for anchors - although most are backed up, an engineer will tell you that if you have designed and tested the anchor in excess of the standard (currently the Euro Standard) then you should not need to back it up! From a climbing perspective this scares me, but logically it make sense. In terms of belay bars, it's not size that matters, as Kezza points out! It's span, wall thickness, material and number of ropes on the span and how they are attached along with what they are attached to. I'd back Cliffhangers belay bars over others any day - i have the test results to make me feel happy.

At the end of the day, the thing that always get's climbers - on rock or plastic - is the human elelment. I suggest if you are climbing ANYWHERE indoors and you think something is not right - tell the staff - you'll notice at Cliffhanger we may have a rope closed with a "Danger Tag" on it. That will be because someone has reported something to us, and we have not yet investigated/inspected it.

I could discuss the "clip-tie" versus "clip-cli" methods of attachment, but:
1. I invented the "clip-tie" system so i am bias,
2. I've been arguing it with gym owners for years and am quite tired of it all,
3. It's a whole new thread topic within itself, and
4. The system speaks for itself - in terms of accidents compared to the others!

PS. An alpine butterly is much harder to tie coreectly for newbies (and some climbers) and when BlueWater Ropes tested the system for us back in 1994, there was neglible difference in strength between the Figure 8 and the A/Butterfly. I assure you we put a lot of research and money in to our system before taking it to our insurer as a system.

... Just enjoy your climbing but with your eyes open.

AlanD
22/09/2005
8:10:41 AM
Kerroxapithecus, you sound a bit like me with regards to equipment. The more you educate yourself on the performance of the equipment you are using, it's positives and negatives, may benefit in how comfortable you will become with it.

As for height, as I said to someone struggling with one climb last night, many people aren't actually scared of heights they are scared of exposure. They might be totally comfortable on a 10m vertical wall or overhang, but stepping across a gap totally freaks them out.


Paulie
22/09/2005
10:55:03 PM
Climbing in gyms always seems hard for me and IMO is highly detrimental to climbing well outside...espcially if when you climb outside, you do so on granite slabs!

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There are 57 messages in this topic.

 

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