General Climbing Discussion

Author	Soloing
IdratherbeclimbingM9 10-Aug-2005 3:11:31 PM	>all this aid rubbish!! I don't imagine you'll get many votes though :) I agree but then again I'm not the one looking for votes ... nmonteith said; >this topic is obviously about free climbing un-roped! You fall off you die. Obvious is in the eye of the beholder/reader? WM said; >Correct - please exclude rope-soloing and bouldering. >Obviously you will have to apply your own judgement as to where highball bouldering stops and soloing begins. >M8: you may need to adjust your vote? Your thread is titled 'Soloing' so I naturally interpreted it in relation to my soloing experience, which is 'obviously' (sic!) different to many and was not anticipated on your part. :P However since you started the thread I am happy to abide by your conditions attached and will amend my vote accordingly, which will be an average of my earlier quantification. It's all a game. :) ------------------------- [edit] >You will notice each poll option is finished with the words "my roped limit". >This seems to imply that it is refering to NOT using ropes - thus excluding roped soloing. >It seems plain as day to me! Obviously!! LOL. ... So when we go to Qld (as manacubus suggests) do we have to leave our ropes and clothes at the border !! ? ;P
nmonteith 10-Aug-2005 3:36:51 PM	On 10/08/2005 M8iswhereitsat wrote: >Obvious is in the eye of the beholder/reader? You will notice each poll option is finished with the words "my roped limit". This seems to imply that it is refering to NOT using ropes - thus excluding roped soloing. It seems plain as day to me!
Take! 10-Aug-2005 4:37:59 PM	WM, A very simple but thought provoking thread for me. I never really got anything from unroped climbing, anything less than "at or very close your roped grade" soloing didn't mean a lot, especially the "rope rehearsed massively, 7 grades under the limit solo". Hence, if asked I would put myself in the "I wouldn't free solo climb". I paid good money for my gear so I may as well use it, plus (after various bad injuries) I have realised i'm a slow healer and don't need to tempt fate.... (this now includes manky ankles and highball bouldering) However, now I think about it I have to tick "I solo up to grade 5 etc"... This is very rare for me, and only for access in/out etc but it did make me think about this (unnecessary) behaviour. This 'not-soloing' I do usually happens at the start of the climbing day (when i'm cold, not fully switched on etc), or at the end of the day (knackered, thinking about beer and not switched on at all). Plus i'm mostly doing it with a pack and trail shoes. So, I'll definately re-think when looking for the line of least resistance to the carpark/pub. *To clarify the "rope rehearsed massively, 7 grades under the limit solo" comment... To me this is similar to being on my motorbike lapping the race track and then taking my helmet off to do a lap that is 7 seconds slower than my (at limit) lap record. Really the only risk is if something breaks, which is out of my control at the time anyway... so what does it mean? (BTW no offence meant - each to his own).
IdratherbeclimbingM9 10-Aug-2005 5:13:47 PM	On 10/08/2005 Take! wrote: >However, now I think about it I have to tick "I solo up to grade 5 etc"... > This is very rare for me, and only for access in/out etc but it did make me think about this (unnecessary) behaviour. (snip) >Plus i'm mostly doing it with a pack and trail shoes. >So, I'll definately re-think when looking for the line of least resistance to the carpark/pub. You have touched on an interesting aspect of the game here Take!. I have always been of the opinion that most non-climbing people prefer to have a rope attached to them from grade 8 on upwards. What do you (as a climber) do when the line of least resistance (descent gully for example), is a grade 8 climb (for some/many)? Intrigueing concept ~ unnecessary risk (soloing) vs expediency having/using equipment, or from another angle; is a grade (say*) 8 Deep Water Solo a different kettle of fish compared to an airy grassed up scramble to access a 'real' climb? {*slide the grade numbers up or down in the examples to suit your preference!}
Dave C 10-Aug-2005 7:57:04 PM	When I lived at Little River I used to pop up to the Youies after work and solo routes up to about grade 17/18 just for the exercise (was leading 20/21 at the time.) As you might imagine I did know them rather well! In the early 90s I did quite a lot of soloing on gritstone as many of the routes I wanted to do had no gear anyway. Best was probably Hairless Heart (E5 5c / unprotected 21/2-ish) on-sight in 1992 at Froggatt. Now out of retirement I've done a few short soloes up to about grade 15/16 on grit (without mats or spotters) but only with a fair amount of prior knowledge. I haven't really got my 'soloing' head back so unlikely to indulge in on-sight soloing above grade 10 these days.
paulie 10-Aug-2005 9:11:21 PM	I used to regularly solo things to within 4 grades of my onsight ability on short single pitch routes (on trad that would've been about 22, so would've felt comfotable soloing things up to about 18), but then again, I wouldn't go and solo some big easy mountain route either...the consequences are too high as you need to maintain concentration for far longer. Don't really do it much anymore, certainly I would only solo very easy things up to about grade 15 - too much too lose now... can't use my mountain bike on a pair of stuffed legs! Paul
paulie 10-Aug-2005 9:14:45 PM	On 10/08/2005 nmonteith wrote: >Doesn't count. If I get pumped and i know I am going to fall off I do a >quick check of my harness and >belayer before commiting to the airtime. If i saw a rope problem I would >not be jumping and instead >clipping direct to whatever is nearby!! Shouldn't you do this before leaving the ground Neil! ;)
Phil Box 11-Aug-2005 10:49:24 AM	Heh, I`m with Neil on checking my belayer and everything else I possibly can before commiting to jumping off.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 11-Aug-2005 11:32:47 AM	>jumping off. ... ~> bad habit when soloing. I went through a complacent stage (that lasted about a year), once where it was tempting to often take the easy option of jumping off. After reviewing a few accos of others I decided to minimise the habit. In terms of success I found it better to fall while trying to complete the route rather than give up and jump. As a result I surprised myself by actually getting up a few hard (for me) climbs. These days most falls I take are unexpected as I have worked out my fatigue limits reasonably well, and generally downclimb if I know I have not got enough reserve strength left to complete the route. An unexpected fall does not allow you the luxury of doing a 'quick check' of system components, ... ~> better to get things right before having to rely on them! :)
shmalec 11-Aug-2005 1:05:55 PM	I have a friend who broke both ankles in an unexpected fall when his feet clipped a very small ledge on the way down. If he had pushed off a bit it would not have happened. Lesson is that sometimes you are better off committing to the fall rather than just peeling off. I think the exposure counts for alot too. Most downclimb descents are descents usually because they have limited exposure even though they may be grade 8, 12 etc. If they were the same grade but very airy and sustained its a different thing. The options listed show the grade which implies the risk of coming off, but not the potential cost of a fall which is just as important. edit: I think Lynn Hill summed it up pretty well..."Little to gain and everything to lose".
steph 11-Aug-2005 4:39:06 PM	I like the free feeling of soloing but still agree it's pointless in theory. When you sit down and think about it, it doesn't take much for something to go wrong and for that thing to be out of your control (snake, hold breaks, etc) . So being logical I would say "nah i wouldn't solo stuff." However being the adrenalin junky i am, i have and probably will solo stuff just cos it's fun, effortless in terms of safety and gives that rush not much else does. That said - you wouldn't find me soloing close to my roped limit unless entirely by mistake. :p
Dave C 11-Aug-2005 5:49:10 PM	On 11/08/2005 shmalec wrote: >I have a friend who broke both ankles in an unexpected fall when his feet >clipped a very small ledge on the way down. Steve Monks did a similar thing at Moonarie way back in the mid-80s which led to this. http://www.chockstone.org/Arapiles/Members/DClarke/SteveMonksSaggitarian1l.jpg
Goodvibes 12-Aug-2005 7:25:32 AM	What, the shock of the fall resulted in him deciding to climb in what are effectively hot pants, the poor bastard, but what about the rest of us.
Nottobetaken 12-Aug-2005 10:56:17 AM	WM: Interesting poll - any particular reason for it? Much like the topic in question - the following text is provided for your amusement only... Good comments by Neil - "soloing sport routes is contrived" "you can use the bolts." When last did you ever try this tactic when soloing? And what were you on? Obviously not a carrot-bolted route! Otherwise - boy! Do you have some strong pinching power or what? And what about fixed hangers? Now that is painful! Also like the seemingly shocked announcement that Mr Huber lowered off a sport route having soloed it - by putting his arm through a sling and getting a belayer in to lower him off. I seem to remember Mr Johns did the same thing at South Central after having soloed Aint No Sunshine (28) (twice). He sure as hell wasn't going to go 'for the summit experience'. Have you ever seen the amount of slimey choss above those chains? This obviously touches on the subject of 'soloing style' - and by that I mean 'free-soloing style' - so no comments required by the sling-lover fraternity please. Taking the following example for reference, what would you describe as 'free soloing'? Obviously clipping into anything en-route is 'aid' - but wearing a harness? C'mon! In one instance many years ago - immediately after a failed attempt at leading a sport route (ie. I still had a harness on) - my belayer disappeared in search of some lunch. I had de-geared the top half of the route whilst being lowered off - but couldn't get the draws out from under the roof - so thought I might be able to get them later from the ground (call it a little highball boulder problem if you will). I was still tied in (but lacked that little essential previously mentioned - who for all I knew had buggered off to the nearest Cafe). Fairly rapidly thereafter (some 10 minutes) I got bored - so decided on doing a spot of bouldering. I bouldered up to the 1st, then 2nd bolts - intent on removing the draws. While I was up there however - I had a feel of the crux hold again in the roof. This time it didn't feel too bad - so I went for it. The move in question was a dynamic lunge out for a jug on the lip of the roof. I caught the jug and went to the top - the top being in this case 2 double ring bolts. Still having a draw on me - I clipped in and waited for my surprised belayer - who thought some Indian rope trick had occurred. That was until she saw me at the end of it. Being my girlfriend - she wasn't exactly pleased - but that's another story... Now - soloing being a very personal thing - I already know the answer to this. But who disagrees that the route in question was soloed - merely because I was wearing a harness and that I didn't go 'for the summit experience'? When last did you top out on a sport route (leading it) and think that - "bugger this arbitrary lower off - I'm gunning for the top!" If so - then you're clearly a mountaineer. I'd invite you to take that mentality to a place like Pocket Wall - Nowra, or Centennial Glen, Blue Mts (to name a couple) - but I'm sure people that revel in 'summit fever' don't frequent these places anyway! I've soloed things in a dress wearing antlers before (and significantly less) - if that is termed a 'better style' than soloing wearing a harness - then bring it on! I love dresses...
nmonteith 12-Aug-2005 11:27:35 AM	On 12/08/2005 Dr G wrote: >Good comments by Neil - "soloing sport routes is contrived" "you can use >the bolts." >When last did you ever try this tactic when soloing? And what were you >on? Obviously not a carrot-bolted route! Otherwise - boy! Do you have some >strong pinching power or what? And what about fixed hangers? Now that is >painful! A carrot is a monster jug on a desperate friction slab route (ie Buffalo!). A beefy FIXE hanger can make a great handhold in desperate times - but a ring or u-bolt wins out every time for pure comfort. You need to be careful of the low friction of metal when using them as footholds though. ;-) >Also like the seemingly shocked announcement that Mr Huber lowered off >a sport route having soloed it - by putting his arm through a sling and >getting a belayer in to lower him off. I wasn't making the point that lowering off these sport routes was bad. In fact I was very impressed by their methods - i always wondered how Saxon got off Aint No Sunshine! Full props to these guys! >This obviously touches on the subject of 'soloing style' - and by that >I mean 'free-soloing style' - so no comments required by the sling-lover >fraternity please. Taking the following example for reference, what would >you describe as 'free soloing'? Obviously clipping into anything en-route >is 'aid' - but wearing a harness? C'mon! When you wear a harness you can at almost anytime clip into a bolt - and wait for a rescue. It seems to be a blurry line in my opinion. It is very close to having a belayer, rope and racks but not bothering to place any gear on the route. The pychological fact of having the gear there 'just in case' can certainly give you the extra edge. On many routes I fall off because I pump off, not because the moves are too hard! Being able to 'rest' at the intervals of bolts woudl make it a much easier solo. >But who disagrees that the route in question was soloed - merely >because I was wearing a harness and that I didn't go 'for the summit experience'? >When last did you top out on a sport route (leading it) and think that > - "bugger this arbitrary lower off - I'm gunning for the top!" If so - >then you're clearly a mountaineer. It is just liek the diffrence between pre-placed trad or putting it in as you go. It is a blurring of style. If you admit to people you did it with the harness on then everything is fine. It is certainly still an impressive solo. I have soloed a few routes with a sling over my shoulder, or even a harness on. These have usually been 'access' routes to get to the top of cliffs that I am un-sure about the rock quality or my ability to actually solo the route. Some of these have been up to grade 14ish or so. When I am focusing on true soloing I ditch the gear and go free.
Nottobetaken 12-Aug-2005 1:21:03 PM	No seriousness intended - just having a laugh. "When I am focusing on true soloing I ditch the gear and go free." - absolutely. It's much harder to concentrate if you've got a 'get out clause'.
gfdonc 12-Aug-2005 1:28:30 PM	Neil wrote: > A carrot is a monster jug on a desperate friction slab route (ie Buffalo!). Yup (raises hand slowly as if not wanting to admit to something) .. carrot saved my ass once when soloing Supersonic (19?) at Seven Acre. Lost my 'head' about 2/3 of the way up so grabbed the head of one to steady for a few moments. Lived to tell the tale. I don't solo any more. - Steve
Paulie 12-Aug-2005 10:50:44 PM	On 12/08/2005 Dr G wrote: >...who for all I knew had buggered off to the nearest Cafe). >Still having a draw on me - I clipped in and waited for my surprised belayer - who thought some Indian rope trick had occurred. So, Dr G what would have happened if the 1st scenario had actually occured? ;) Soloing is silly, if you do it often enough you will probably die from it - it's simply not worth it. A long time ago now, I talked a mate into leading a route (22) that he had his heart set on soloing...fortunately he listened to me, got to the crux, where a crucial undercling snapped sending him flying onto the last bolt a few mtrs below ... He's extremely lucky I was there to convince him to lead it, otherwise he would def' not be enjoying life in Nati today... Paul
Dave C 13-Aug-2005 12:10:00 AM	On 12/08/2005 Paulie wrote: >Soloing is silly, if you do it often enough you will probably die from >it - it's simply not worth it. > Perhaps you should add "in my opinion" to that statement? I know a lot of people who've done a lot of soloing and are still very much alive so perhaps you should consider not trying to pass your opinions off as some sort of definitive statement based on one incident you have experienced.
gordoste 13-Aug-2005 12:47:40 AM	>Soloing is silly, if you do it often enough you will probably die from >it - it's simply not worth it. Same with driving cars, but I bet you still drive cars.... so that logic does not hold. Personally I don't think soloing is worth it either but I can understand those who do. Your friend was lucky but he would have had no-one to blame but himself if he had to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. He should thank you! High-altitude mountaineering is also very dangerous and has uncontrollable risks (bad weather instead of snapping holds) but is generally not seen as "silly" in the climbing community.

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