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Impacts-sport vs trad

Fish Boy

11-May-2005
10:26:54 AM

.....amen....


Rich

11-May-2005
10:50:55 AM

On 11/05/2005 Fish Boy wrote:
That track
>that looks like a car wheel track is from people walking side by side.....
>
We were talking about this track the other day and I believe this track will eventually become more and more rutted and will eventually ahve to be gravelled due to erosion from constant use and water run-off. IMO having the few more smaller tracks looks a lot less unsightly than the 'highway' that we are now forced to use.

expat

11-May-2005
11:18:06 AM

Some generalisations are pretty accurate. behind it all is a sense of responsibility and i think respect for the environment and by that i don't mean 'green' as such but a feeling that you belong in that environment of rock, you are there for the long haul and you are a steward or caretaker, that sense of appreciation. Some descriptions of routes and sites makes your skin crawl with all the trampling, waste and white encrustations. Incidentally with the talk of chalk I decided to see if i could limit the use. Yeah its easy on most stuff. More of a challenge as well (esp qld in summer (and most of the year as well - and the sweaty Bettys out there). Should be an alternate grade for 1st chalkless ascent. It's like your dummy or masturbation on public transport. You find yourself with the hand in the bag and wonder 'how did that get there.' Break the habit people. It's not THAT important.

fcharnis

11-May-2005
1:07:27 PM

I agree that both types of climbing are equally destructive to the environment. I’ve heard of some regions in the world where no nuts are permitted (only knots). In Yosemite, USA, due to the large number of climbers (with nuts to protect the route), some crags where only fingers fitted (back in the 60’s) today you can jam your fist. On the other hand, sport climbing is easer to get to (closer to roads, less gear to carry) and they receive more transit than trad climbing. The problem is the amount of people who go climbing (trad or sport), but there isn’t much we can (want) to do about that.
We will go on cleaning the dirt from the crag for the nut to fit well, or bolting the face to have a reasonably secure climbing. But we can do something about the paths and the chalk.
Tracks: Lets try to walk one behind the other on those tracks to get to the walls we want. If we see the track is already wasted, we should give the word to the ranger to close this track and use a different one. I would hate to see the paths graveled to prevent further erosion.
Chalk: Please let’s try to minimize it. Its purpose is to dry the hand and not mark the wall. Use your memory to know where that hold is, don’t mark it. I personally hate when I can’t read the wall because it was read aloud for me by previous climbers. Don’t think it will be washed away by the rain, in Araps, it almost doesn’t rain!!!

Rocky

12-May-2005
11:23:20 AM

On 11/05/2005 Fish Boy wrote:
>sorry steph, but i dissagree.....cliffs are trashed by no one else but
>climbers. Look at Araps and imagine no one had ever climbed there.

Check your history fish boy before you open slather, before climbers came to arapiles sheep grazed right up to the base of tiger wall, the whole place was bare from their continual grazing, just like what kangaroos do but worse. if you look at the old old pics arapiles was bare. and look at it now, you might think it is worse but it is much better than when it was left open to grazing. climbers arent the only ones who ruin the landscape at arapiles.

there also used to be a rifle range a few 100m from the base of the watchtower faces (check the memorial site if you dont believe me), and still now you can find heaps of stray bullets at the base of the watchtower faces, and some lodged in cracks.

ppl also used to have weddings and picnics and all manner of celebrations of occasions at arapiles, once again long before ppl climbed here, in the days of horses and carts.

climbers do have an impact on the landscape at arapiles but we're not the only ones, fair crack of the whip.

climbingjac

12-May-2005
12:07:46 PM

My understanding of history is that the Aborigines dabbled in the odd bit of rock mining at Araps too.....??

12-May-2005
1:05:03 PM

I'm with Rocky on this one. The rifle range was still in operation when I first visited Araps and if the red flags were flying then was no climbing on the Watchtower faces. All the black wattles (?) at the base of the Organ Pipes only came after the fire in the early '70s, it killed the large gum whose skelton is still there (and which provided the only shade in the area).

Cliffcare has had several working bees to help ameliorate the problems caused by climbers, both trad and sport, and there may be another working bee for the tracks at the Queens's Birthday long weekend in June. If you are keen to help restore the damage done then contact http//www.cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au


Breezy

12-May-2005
2:47:46 PM

On 11/05/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Here is a generalization for you!
>
>Sportsters cause more damage - but usually in areas that have already
>felt the hand of man as they are close to civilization with short walk-ins.
>
>Tradsters cause smaller amounts of damage - but do so in remoter and more
>pristine enviroments.

Well said


Rich

12-May-2005
3:53:39 PM

On 12/05/2005 climbingjac wrote:
>My understanding of history is that the Aborigines dabbled in the odd bit
>of rock mining at Araps too.....??

bloody think they own the place! :P

Rocky

16-May-2005
5:28:28 PM

On 12/05/2005 Rich wrote:
>On 12/05/2005 climbingjac wrote:
>>My understanding of history is that the Aborigines dabbled in the odd
>bit
>>of rock mining at Araps too.....??
>
>bloody think they own the place! :P

high up on tiger wall just near the roofs that syrinx goes through there are some chippings that you can see, nothing major, but it has long since stopped.

i was just speaking to my dad (Keith Lockwood) last night and he said that just the other day, saturday 14th he was at a working bee up pharos gully at araps making the tracks better by laying rocks and cementing them in place, just like at the organ pipes, this is a good practise i think because it removes a lot of erosion that we do walking all over the bottom of the cliffs.

arapiles it being looked after quite well at the moment. it cant all happen at the click of your fingers either, its a long process that costs money and time, but a lot is being done by cliff care to protect our cliffs.

chris

16-May-2005
6:26:11 PM

I would wonder if neil's generalization applies to the major trad crag in Australia... ie, Arapiles... where trad climbers have caused "smaller amounts of damage" in a "remote and pristine environment"??
Or maybe Frog, or Mt. Piddington, also remote, pristine crags (with correspondingly epic walk-ins), where trad climbers have done "smaller amounts of damage".
Will I have to take my GPS next time I visit these crags? Perhaps it is just the abundant wildlife which has trashed the base of these crags?

Wendy

16-May-2005
7:41:24 PM

The superhighway up to the organ pipes has actually been enhanced courtesy of Parks Vic. Some vegetation off left was cleared and the grass sprayed so vehicles can turn around up there (management and rescue vehicles, the rest being locked out). They also did some fine work knocking regrowth off the sides of the campsite road, presumably as some kind of gutter cleaning exercise. And on the closed vehicle track heading towards King Rat. Then there's the junk that gets thrown off the lookouts and the people (climbers and others alike) who still collect firewood in the parks and can't shit in the bush without leaving trails of evidence. There are definately a stack of impacts aside from climbers and the range of impact we have is wider than most people first think.

(Hi Tim! Good to see you on here. Are you using Chockstone for study procrastination?)

maxdacat

16-May-2005
8:12:02 PM

On 16/05/2005 Rocky wrote:
>i was just speaking to my dad (Keith Lockwood) last night and he said
>that just the other day, saturday 14th he was at a working bee up pharos
>gully at araps making the tracks better by laying rocks and cementing them
>in place, just like at the organ pipes, this is a good practise i think
>because it removes a lot of erosion that we do walking all over the bottom
>of the cliffs.

I like the sound of that as it seems like it's beeing well thought out eg natural stone rather than concrete....still it does takeaway the wild aspect.

>>My understanding of history is that the Aborigines dabbled in the odd
>bit
>>of rock mining at Araps too.....??

Aborigines also dabbled in the odd bit of rockpainting....but that's tends to look nicer than chalkmarks.

There are 33 messages in this topic.