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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 104
Author
to A(id) grade or not to A(id) grade

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/03/2005
10:23:23 AM
Thanks for the Thrutch 66 from 1975 article Neil.
It seems the debate has been around for a while.
Back then it was more about adding M '0' or not to.

You have however triggered another thought for me on the matter as a result of this article.

From my experience of the current climbing scene it seems that not too many new aid lines are being put up, and that it seems that most aid proponents are repeating established lines.
This has the effect (by default) of these climbers learning the M grades as a form of apprenticeship, because there is sufficient guidebook info already out there to enable people to catagorise what they have just done (particularly if its a classic, eg Ozy).

Indeed my own experience was ratified in this way, because it wasn't until I started doing the classics that I was able to quantify the prolific and obscure stuff I had done elswhere by comparison.

In terms of the new guidebook and proposed change of system, I think that you will create confusion for new aid climbers because enough literature is already out there which includes M grades, (even if its delineations have not been well documented).
It will also make for more work in that if they are converted, then this will actually need to be done and is time and effort on someones part. The conversion work could aslo become tedious if old original ascent records need to be looked up.
Apart from convenience it seems much easier to simply include a conversion table for those (new wavers) that need it.
The irony is that a conversion table will be needed anyway because then you will have another group of people (like me) saying what would this be originally graded in the M system, now that it has become A, as a result of still utilising our history in the form of old guidebooks occasionaly!

nmonteith
Online Now
18/03/2005
10:23:34 AM
On 18/03/2005 kachoong wrote:
> and anyway when I think
>about it, I wouldn't find a mixed ice climb in Australia with any aid sections
>to call it WI4 M6 18 M5....

Sounds like a challenge! I might just do a route this year at Bogong that has some aiding ;-)
gfdonc
18/03/2005
10:28:07 AM
Ya lost the vote, Neil, just move on ... ;-)

LittleMac
18/03/2005
10:49:21 AM
On 18/03/2005 nmonteith wrote:

>Sounds like a challenge! I might just do a route this year at Bogong that
>has some aiding ;-)

Sing out if you need a partner, if only to add fuel to the continuing debate.
kachoong
18/03/2005
10:56:43 AM
On 18/03/2005 LittleMac wrote:
>On 18/03/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>
>>Sounds like a challenge! I might just do a route this year at Bogong
>that
>>has some aiding ;-)
>
>Sing out if you need a partner, if only to add fuel to the continuing
>debate.


yeah, I'd be in that.... sounds like fun.... I'd say there would be places at Bogong and Blue lake for that, hey? Grab the tools and stand in a few slings to put up an M6 M0

LittleMac
18/03/2005
11:27:56 AM
M8 and others what are some of your all time favourite aid routes (anywhere).???
tundra
18/03/2005
11:41:12 AM
Now there is a some Neil bashing going on: are we opposed to that view or just being good ozys and backing the loser, 'M' grade. We all know that the aid climbers in all of us are either sadists/social recluses not likely to turn up at this forum, strong willed adventurers who will go through this ordeal for the sunrise in the morning and the view, or Violent people who resort to this sort of thing for therapy and bumblies that like getting in over thier heads... they are all around the world and the culture is united by the 'A'. join the club?

The B Guider's are still assesing the controversy, remember that currently the total debate includes a small percentage of the greater community: we are also sounding out the issue on other levels: most buffalo stalwarts are unanimously in agreeance with the 'a', it seem the international precedent is strongest in thier eyes and has been for some time. these climbers arent really c-stoner types. Its important to remember that the decision will be made outside of this outcome. M8 has a strong arguement and Neil is consistent with the non-Cstoner buffalo community (unusual). I know of many climbers who have included ozy as a part of the tick list for a aussie roadtrip, there are climbers who are putting up serious new pitches on the north wall who have supplied the grading as 'A'. Free-climb abroad and adjust to local grading, aid-climb and expect consistency. I'm not sure how yet to accomidate the opposing views: the forum is not consistent with talk. The new guide will drag buffalo kicking and screaming (much like this forum) out of the dark ages and into the light, some things will change and heaps of new routes will follow (there is a lot of yet untravelled stone up-there). we are not writting the final chapter, all styles of climbing are being popularised rapidly: are we trying to keep Aussie aiding as a dark horse?

ps: M8, maybe you can be of assistance re details of other routes on the wall, sounds like your up with it: any other ascents asside trade routes with any info we should know?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/03/2005
1:53:02 PM
G'day Tundra,

Although your last post has inspirational humour within it (which I enjoyed), I get the disturbingly strong impression (overall from your post) that the outcome is (almost??) a foregone conclusion.

>most buffalo stalwarts
Who; and how many, are these?
If they are luminaries of the climbing world does that make their opinions worth more than the also-rans??

>Its important to remember that the decision will be made outside of this outcome.
Yes, do that by all means.
I suggest writing to original ascentionists (who may not frequent new technology communication); Dragoon Rock Mag and other Aussie climbing Clubs / Forums etc in on the debate, if you intend to change the AUSTRALIAN system.

>The new guide will drag buffalo kicking and screaming
Use Buffalo as your catalyst by all means but don't try to impose a new doctrine on us without true concensus, as a concensus amongst an opinionated minority does not have much credibility in the long term*.

(*I was young once too, and well remember thinking some things needed changing. These days I am not so sure!)

M8

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/03/2005
2:02:47 PM
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?ForumID=1&Action=Display&MessageID=20501&PagePos=0&Sort=

The above is a cross-link to BA* post on the poll thread.
I posted it here for serious consideration / add to the debate, ... for the discussion on the other thread is generally in the more light hearted vein?

I can identify with the issues that Bill has raised. This is why I alluded to having problems with length of fall as a criteria in an earlier post of mine.

The addition of an + to grades does not apply to our free grades so why should we consider it for the aid grades?
If its 'stiff' or 'tricky' for the grade, then this should be part of the climb description.

Use the Ewbank system how it was intended and it holds its own (or betters) against all other systems I reckon.

(*Trust you don't mind BA, and thanks for contributing the historical perspective from an original source).

----------------------------------
Post edit: Not trying to cut you out of the loop LittleMac. I figured if anyone went to the link they would read on and see your response at the end. :)

LittleMac
18/03/2005
2:07:17 PM
On 18/03/2005 M8iswhereitsat wrote:
>http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?ForumID=1&Action=Display&MessageID=20501&PagePos
>0&Sort=
>
>The above is a cross-link to BA post on the poll thread.
>I posted it here for serious consideration / add to the debate, ... for
>the discussion on the other thread is generally in the more light hearted
>vein?

To be fair I've posted the reponse to that post.

On 18/03/2005 BA wrote:
>Can anybody who takes the "definitions" of American aid grades literally
>answer the following; "If the grade given to a piece of aid climbing is
>dependent on the size of a fall, say 50 feet, can any climbing up to 49
>feet 11 inches from the ground be given that grade?"
>
Of course a route of that nature can be given that grade. The divisions of each grade if read carefully suggest that a given grade is not neccessarily based upon fall potential but also difficulty of placing gear and time required to lead pitch. Therfore if a climb staisfys all the other criteria for that category then it should be given that grade.

>There are lots of people around who feel that if getting off the ground
>is the crux of a climb then the grade is not based on those hardest moves
>but easier moves higher up the climb. For free climbing it is normally
>only a couple of moves but aiding for 35/40/45 feet is a long way and according
>to the definitions it can never be given the grade that most closely reflects
>the quality of gear that you can expect. What a silly concept.

Don't see how the M system is any better in this respect as their is no clear definiton of what each M grade should cocsist of. The A system bases it's whole system of definition around the quality of gear you can expect, so in this regard I feel it addresses the situation better.

>No person has ever convinced me that sub-grades are at all, in anyway,
>sensible - see a previous post I put up about 'F' grades, if you can have
>A4+, why not A1+ or A1-? If the 'A' grades are to be consistent then sub-divions
>of the grades apply equally across the board. A1- could be a rest or a
>single point, A1 could be a couple of bolts as mentioned above by Ewbank,
>A1+ could be 2 nuts in a reasonable crack. If we follow on with this line
>of reasoning (if applied to 'F' grades there are 81 sub-divisions up to
>F9a+) that means we would have to go from M0 to M11 to get a 'correlation'
>with 'A' grades, which is what you would get if the 'A' grades had no sub-divisions.

There is no reason that A1+ cant exist, the plusses in each subdivision simply mean the extreme of each numerical A grade. So A1+ would be the extreme of A1 and so on. Quite simple to grasp I thought. The plusses make grading easier because as with free grades we often say a stiff 19 well with the a grades you can quantify that by saying stiff A3 = A3+.

>Get the Seppos to sort out their grading system before we even consider
>adopting any of it in Oz (and what about 5.13? I was taught at school that
>5.13 came between 5.1 and 5.2 'cause it was DECIMAL).

Nobody is suggesting that we adopt the Yosemite Decimal Sytem (depite the fact that sometimes the A sytem is placed as the sixth class of climbing in that system). The fifth class climbing scale is ridiculous and difficult to understand and at no stage have we suggested that we should adopt this.

>I'm starting to get stroppy now, so I'll stop. And no, I haven't voted.

Sorry your getting stroppy BA but maybe you should of voted if you have such strong views.

Cheers

LittleMac

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Totally respect all that you have done for the climbing community Bill and in no way do my comments attempt to devalue your point of view. I am simply sharing my own.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
21/03/2005
1:38:51 PM
BA said
>I'm starting to get stroppy now, so I'll stop. And no, I haven't voted.
LittleMac said
>Sorry your getting stroppy BA but maybe you should of voted if you have such strong views.

Yes BA, I also think you should vote (and I questioned Neil as to why the 10 year limit imposed without obtaining a mitigating answer).
IMO The poll is a small enough insight* without putting further blinkers on it. Anyone who ever put up an aid line, or documented them, or validated them by repeating them etc has a right to vote in my opinion.
(*My cynicism over the outcome notwithstanding)!

LittleMac; I trust you saw my last post edit re not cutting you out of the loop?
:)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post edit:
>that this debate seems to be happening over several threads
Yeah, thats why I dragged it back here by the cross reference.
... Trying to get some order in the re-racking of the used posts!

LittleMac
21/03/2005
2:07:22 PM
On 21/03/2005 M8iswhereitsat wrote:
>LittleMac; I trust you saw my last post edit re not cutting you out of
>the loop?
>:)

Ceratinly did cheers for the thought, I just find it a little bit frustrating (as I know you do as well) that this debate seems to be happening over several threads. Enkoying the deabte though.

Cheers,

LittleMac

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/04/2006
10:36:19 PM
This post is to put some kind of closure on the debate that is contained within the thread; as the context was, what to do about aid grades (?) for the (then upcoming) new Buffalo Guide.

The new guide (5th edition - 2006) is now published and available to the masses.

It retains the 'M' (open ended) Australian Aid Grading System, and has a conversion chart to the 'A' grading system on pages 12 & 13.

Interestingly though, on page 103 (route topo of the recently freed iconic aid climbs), it has a bet-each-way by listing the 'A' system equivalent on individual pitches along with Free grades and the 'M' grades.

The guide in numerous places exhorts practitioners of aid climbing to do so cleanly, ie hammerless, and makes it quite clear that the M grades for any given climb assumes that they are done so in this 'clean style', unless otherwise annotated.

I applaud the guidebook authors for utilising the M system as it was intended, and note that at least 3 climbs (possibly 4) are given the grade of M9 which is a step beyond the previously published (as hardest established) grade of M8.
Further it alludes within one climb description that a remaining pitch is still there to be done at a grade harder again (M10 or higher), in the opinion of its visionary 1st ascentionist up to that point.

Climbing evolves and will continue to do so.
If aid climbing is still practised by devotees in (say?) 30 years time this benchmark publication sets an ongoing excellent baseline for being able to differentiate the nuances of what hard aid climbing is for then and beyond.
The corollary regarding free grades (counterpart) to that today, is that it was not so long ago that grade 30 was barely conceivable when we were pushing the boundaries of grade 20.

~ Likewise I predict that aid will one day extend into M20 and beyond ...

kerroxapithecus
19/04/2006
12:10:27 AM
Well we look forward to the evolution of your name...but I quite liked M8 because it was like mateiswhereitsat....like maaaaayyyyytttt!!!

And why pray tell did you leave god's country?
ant
19/04/2006
9:14:34 AM
>And why pray tell did you leave god's country?

Are you inferring that Rod was from the Shire?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/04/2006
1:31:42 PM
On 19/04/2006 kerroxapithecus wrote:
>And why pray tell did you leave god's country?
& ant wrote:
>from the Shire?

Not all those who wander are lost...

"Don't talk to it Merry! Don't encourage it!"

'I would not have this world end now, nor lose so soon what I have found.'


maxots
19/04/2006
2:01:01 PM
which 3 climbs (possibly 4) get M9???

max

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/04/2006
3:18:40 PM
Clouded Queen M8/9
Copperhead Road M9
Better than Disneyland M9
Fuhrers Indiscretion M9; with an M10 (or harder) pitch still to go.

They are all listed in the index. Close perusal of the topos and climb descriptions will also reveal them.

... & to answer another of your questions; On the Buffalo Extravaganza thread you wrote:
>which routes are where you were looking for new routes?

Mr Hinton has done Disneyland, and also Indiscretion (M9's as above) on those blank bits of the North Wall.
... and like HB did on Copperhead Rd; ... led as roped-SOLOs !

~> RESPECT !!

kerroxapithecus
19/04/2006
9:41:55 PM
On 19/04/2006 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>On 19/04/2006 kerroxapithecus wrote:
>>And why pray tell did you leave god's country?
>& ant wrote:
>>from the Shire?

Yep the Warringah/Pittwater Shire as I recall from a previous post some time ago.
>
>Not all those who wander are lost...
>
>"Don't talk to it Merry! Don't encourage it!"
>
>'I would not have this world end now, nor lose so soon what I have found.'
>

Yyyyup! ....Too much time in god's country has been known to have an effect on the mind I'm afraid!! :) lol

maxots
20/04/2006
12:07:51 PM
wow, i hadn't looked in the guide for hard lines outside of the she > ozy area below wilkinsons.....

man when chris fittzy hears this he'll be excited!!!!

where is fuhrers indiscretion??? what kind of aiding??? (hooking/beaks/heads?)

we're all heading down to buffalo for a portaledge party so maybe we'll do some scoping!

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