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to A(id) grade or not to A(id) grade


nmonteith

15-Mar-2005
2:35:12 PM

To confuse the issue - in the USA they use the letter C instead of an A to show a clean aid route. For example Zodiac on El Cap is considered to be C3+ or A2+. What that means is that if you whack pitons it makes it much safer. It also encourges clean aid climbing as it shows that it has been clean aided previously.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

15-Mar-2005
2:44:28 PM

>It also encourges clean aid climbing as it shows that it has been clean aided previously.
Agreed.
IMO clean aiding the Buffalo routes are generally an M grade (at least) harder than as was originally written up, but without going too far down that track I would be happy enough if only the original M grades were included for each pitch where applicable in the new guide.
Once again in the preface section or adjacent to the conversion section, clean aid should be exhorted as the way to go, and to bear in mind that this will add a grade to that as listed (aka the 1st ascent) for climbs earlier than say year 2000* (arbitrary / convenient cut-off time).
* I advocate this because anything new done is generally done clean and the M (current) grade takes this into account (?)

tundra

15-Mar-2005
3:27:22 PM

How is this: C grades for trade routes, A grades for routes requiring a hammer and M for the FA details? now its getting compilicated.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

15-Mar-2005
3:37:02 PM

Just stick with the M grades,
... after all they WERE for original hammered routes aka we have plenty of historical precedent.

All you need do is suggest that M grades are 'clean' these days (in bold type?) near the conversion.

... or take Onsights suggestion and change them all to european sport grades if you want to make it complicated!
:P

tundra

15-Mar-2005
3:49:32 PM

One important issue has not yet been fully covered in the bias of A over M, Is the northwall a means to an end (training) for the budding internationally bound waller or an end unto itself (do ozy once and never aid again), it seems like level pegging from feedback outside this forum. C-stoners?...


sticky

15-Mar-2005
3:53:00 PM

Why not have the clean grade and the M grade - best of both worlds?

eg Lord Gumtree M5/C3+ (or whatever the grades are)

The 'C' grade is useful and the 'M' grade keeps it Aussie.
But what would I know, I'm not an aid climber.

Kyle
btw - what do you do with a mixed rock/ice route that needs some aiding in the Aussie system? What does the M refer to in that case? Ok, not likely to happen in the Aussie climate.

dalai

15-Mar-2005
3:54:40 PM

I think Neil makes quite a few valid points.

A small percentage of people who dabble in aid climbing maybe just do Ozy or something similar for the experience. An equally small percentage like M8 will gladly just enjoy the climbs close to home. But aid climbing is such a small subgroup where the majority of aid climbers would be using the Buffalo climbs as a stepping stone to Yosemite and elsewhere, it makes sense to convert the grades to the one system (I am not suggesting this for free climbs).

To be listed as A grades (only display C grade, not the A grade also if done as clean aid. As it is logical it should be easier with the hammer).

Also still including the Aid grade for the more popular climbs even if freed if it is still the more common ascent style. Or as in a few guides make note of the grades in the FA details, and the subsequent freeing of sections/pitches.


maxots

15-Mar-2005
4:06:22 PM

out of interest>>>> do we read australian aid grades as "new wave" or "old school" ??? ?

tundra

15-Mar-2005
4:09:13 PM

The guide will probably have independant free and aid descriptions with topos for each on the main lower comet ramp section, and individual pitch grades for all. Need'nt worry about the complexity of descriptions.

gfdonc

15-Mar-2005
4:23:24 PM

Wot is it with this expression "old school"? Heard it a few times on the weekend .. e.g. in relation to Morfydd (19) 'it was too old school for me'. It's just rock, guys, you just climb it! What excuse do we think the "old schoolers" would use in its place?

(Maybe I should have posted this on excuses?)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

15-Mar-2005
4:33:32 PM

On 15/03/2005 dalai wrote:
>I think Neil makes quite a few valid points.
I do too but that does not mean I have to agree with them wholeheartedly!

(snip)

>But aid climbing is such a small subgroup where the majority of aid climbers would be using the Buffalo climbs as a stepping stone to Yosemite and elsewhere, it makes sense to convert the grades to the one system

Do they? Some maybe, but the majority?? ~>This is news to me.
In any event, those that go overseas (especially to Yosemite) will soon enough become acquainted with the A &/or C system, the same as free climbers become acquainted with the local system of free grades of the country visited.

Just because some may want to go further, this is NOT a good reason to ditch our logical system which is supported by our cultural heritage.

What is it about our (apparent need/desire) suffering from 'overseasure'?

It's as if its the only way to go; ... and if its not USA, then its not good!
I did not know that we Aussies were cultural-cringers who need our hands held by Uncle Sam in all things ....

As a note of irony I am aware of a swing away from USA style tape ettriers towards Russian style 'hook and ring' ettriers is gaining momentum in Yosemite ...
Maybe some other cultures do have good systems after all?
:P
:P
:P
---------------------------------------------
Post edit.
I am fairly certain Neil uses the hook/ring setup also!

tundra

15-Mar-2005
4:44:47 PM

'old skool' is the prefered spelling like 'skooly D' which is about as far from rock as it gets.
And thats about as far from this thread as it can get; except of course if you were refering to the american cultural imperialism through the influence of HipHop on the local climbing vocab - just like the A grade.

'New Wave' is more about the specialist equipment designed to climb particular new routes (leeper cam hooks - specialised beaks and rurps ect) ie: you wont get far on a standard rack. right?


PN

15-Mar-2005
4:52:42 PM

Tunny,

maybe you should run a poll on this, to get a feel for the numbers. Just hit the "new poll" button

The Isle of Damos

Gone and done it now, hopefully that helps a bit


climbau

15-Mar-2005
5:11:09 PM

On 15/03/2005 dalai wrote:

> But aid climbing
>is such a small subgroup where the majority of aid climbers would be using
>the Buffalo climbs as a stepping stone to Yosemite and elsewhere, it makes
>sense to convert the grades to the one system (I am not suggesting this
>for free climbs).

Valid point Dalai, But how many people from overseas come to Australia to go Aiding? Very few I would imagine as [alas :(] Oz is not "Whereitsat" as far as Aid is concerned. So why cater for a minority of Aid climbers??? Why should we not cater for the main Aid group (being Australians)?


mrbumble

15-Mar-2005
5:11:43 PM

As i understand it, new wave grades were basically introduced to open up the hard end of the scale. A3s in the old wave became A2 under new wave, and essentially allowed hard aid climbers to better differentiate (and sandbag) between bloody hard and dangerous, bloody bloody hard and dangerous and sheer lunacy better than they could under the old wave system.

Gear like cam hooks, toucans etc are more for the clean aid movement. Even more crazy gear (like tequila straws and ice tools) on climbs, although almost certainly associated with recent new wave climbs, doesn't necessarily mean that a new wave graded climb will need gear like this. I know of plenty of (old school) routes that use heaps of cam hooks, beaks ,rurps etc.

As for our system, the problem i have is the lack of consistency in where people say the individual grades fall. M4-M6 seems as if it straddles A2 to A4 - which is a very wide gap for 3 grades!


nmonteith

15-Mar-2005
5:12:13 PM

The whole point I am making is that the A grading system is an international standard - unlike free climbing grades which are diffrent in the UK, USA, France and Germany! You can rock up to ANY bigwall in the world and the A grade system is the one being used. It is a bit like the stupid yanks holding on to the imperial system - when everyone else in the world is running metric. Sometimes it is easier to go global.


nmonteith

15-Mar-2005
5:13:32 PM

Old School - refers to climbing technique in regards to free climbing. Hand jamming, offwidth thrutches and trad gear routes could all be decribed as 'old school'. New school is overhung, endurance clip-ups!


nmonteith

15-Mar-2005
5:14:43 PM

On 15/03/2005 M8iswhereitsat wrote:
>I am fairly certain Neil uses the hook/ring setup also!

Nope - i generally just use two etriers, daisys and a fi-fi hook - and sometimes I carry a third etrier if i think the moves will be sketchy.


climbau

15-Mar-2005
5:19:03 PM

On 15/03/2005 nmonteith wrote:
> Sometimes it is easier to go global.
There is nothing stopping anyone from using the 'A' grade, it can always be referred to in the conversion, and if the truth be known most climbers will always be more familiar with the 'A' grade. But why not have the primary language 'Australian' i.e the 'M' grade?
(I understand most Europeans speak English, but they also speak the mother tongue when amongst friends)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

15-Mar-2005
5:35:32 PM

On 15/03/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Nope - i generally just use two etriers, daisys and a fi-fi hook - and
>sometimes I carry a third etrier if i think the moves will be sketchy.
Fair call cobber.
I must have mixed my memory up with something I read or saw sometime else.
:)

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