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VCC and ACAV, together on the sand???

Dave_S

23-Sep-2019
8:42:58 AM

On 22-Sep-2019 nmonteith wrote:
>The bolts placed near rock art at Black Ians and the Black Range were removed
>almost immediately (back in 2017 I believe).

I might be wrong - I'm just going on what came out of CliffCare negotiations at the time, which was that climbers should not go immediately removing bolts at sensitive sites, as the removal could cause further damage.

On 23-Sep-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>People are massively critical of the vcc for not doing enough

Even worse, people are massively critical of the VCC for entirely different and inconsistent reasons at different times. Remember the new route moratorium, which was proposed, in the hopes of averting action from Parks, as a demonstration of self-regulation? That was rejected by climbers at the time as being unnecessary. One prominent Nati guidebook author even called it a betrayal of the climbing community by the club.

kieranl

23-Sep-2019
9:02:35 AM

On 23-Sep-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 22-Sep-2019 Silver_13 wrote:
>>This in turn does mean that climbers should be allowed
>>free reign because we do a lot less damage than day visitors (let alone
>>PV themselves)
>
>No the fuch it doesn't! We need to be a responsible, self-regulating user
>group who demonstrate that we have limited scope to our ambitions and that
>we'll come down hard on members of the community who display gross disregard
>for common sense.

And this is a rare occasion where ODH and me are in total agreement.

I believe in the value of Cultural Heritage but if you don't, there is also a totally pragmatic view: the Traditional Owners have the power here. There are legal rpowers relating to Cultural Heritage and current and pending Land Rights determinations. Then there are moral powers. Have a look at the Western Highway where a rag-tag camp has held up a multi-million dollar project for a couple of years. Imagine if Muline was unambiguously re-opened and a single TO set up camp under it in protest. That would just shut it down. That's the sort of power we are talking about.

The internet is a public space. What is said here is public and, trust me, every party with an interest in the climbing issue reads it. So think about what you are going to write and who is going to read it.

One Day Hero

23-Sep-2019
10:18:15 AM

On 23-Sep-2019 Dave_S wrote:
>One prominent Nati guidebook author even called it a betrayal
>of the climbing community by the club.

That person needs to fuch off. Their new route ocd is detrimental to the interests of the climbing community.

silver_13

23-Sep-2019
11:47:30 AM

On 23-Sep-2019 kieranl wrote:
>On 23-Sep-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>>On 22-Sep-2019 Silver_13 wrote:
>>>This in turn does mean that climbers should be allowed
>>>free reign because we do a lot less damage than day visitors (let alone
>>>PV themselves)
>>
>>No the fuch it doesn't! We need to be a responsible, self-regulating
>user
>>group who demonstrate that we have limited scope to our ambitions and
>that
>>we'll come down hard on members of the community who display gross disregard
>>for common sense.
>

Of course we do. However, at the moment we are no worse than any other user group. Law should be applied to everyone equally, otherwise it's not a law.

>And this is a rare occasion where ODH and me are in total agreement.
>
>I believe in the value of Cultural Heritage but if you don't, there is
>also a totally pragmatic view: the Traditional Owners have the power here.
>There are legal rpowers relating to Cultural Heritage and current and pending
>Land Rights determinations. Then there are moral powers. Have a look at
>the Western Highway where a rag-tag camp has held up a multi-million dollar
>project for a couple of years.

I do hope that the Traditional Owners are interested in stopping commercialisation and overdevelopment of National Parks.

>Imagine if Muline was unambiguously re-opened
>and a single TO set up camp under it in protest. That would just shut it
>down. That's the sort of power we are talking about.

May yet happen in a non-closed area, see the note from the article. https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/2019/06/21/assessing-the-future-of-climbing/

>
>The internet is a public space. What is said here is public and, trust
>me, every party with an interest in the climbing issue reads it. So think
>about what you are going to write and who is going to read it.
>
>
I believe that people are smarter than that. And if someone wants to be upset they'll find a reason anyway.

The Rock Robster

23-Sep-2019
4:06:39 PM

On 23-Sep-2019 silver_13 wrote:
>I believe that people are smarter than that. And if someone wants to be
>upset they'll find a reason anyway.

I'm going to channel my inner ODH here:
I'd like to believe that too, and yet your posts are proof that it isn't necessarily true.


rodw

24-Sep-2019
9:20:44 AM

On 23-Sep-2019 The Rock Robster wrote:

>I'm going to channel my inner ODH here:

You need to work harder on your channeling, that wasn't nearly offensive enough for ODH :)

dalai

24-Sep-2019
11:33:35 AM

On 24-Sep-2019 rodw wrote:
>On 23-Sep-2019 The Rock Robster wrote:
>
>>I'm going to channel my inner ODH here:
>
>You need to work harder on your channeling, that wasn't nearly offensive
>enough for ODH :)
>

Needs fuch and chups...

The Rock Robster

24-Sep-2019
1:18:09 PM

Sorry guys, the original comment was a lot meaner but I couldn't bring myself to send it.


gordoste

24-Sep-2019
2:08:54 PM

All of this mudslinging between different climbing groups is very counterproductive. If the two groups cannot work together to co-ordinate their efforts, we will fail.

Personally I think it makes sense for ACAV to tackle the political and legal avenues, with VCC looking after climber education. The two should have some kind of arrangement to ensure they deliver consistent messages to media.

It shouldn't be about one group "winning". It's about the two working together to support common goals.

silver_13

24-Sep-2019
5:52:54 PM

On 24-Sep-2019 The Rock Robster wrote:
>Sorry guys, the original comment was a lot meaner but I couldn't bring
>myself to send it.
Double disappointment.

Anyway, back to the topic- if ACAV did cliff access and VCC did the club stuff that would be the best for everyone imo.

gfdonc

25-Sep-2019
7:04:39 AM

Last night's AGM must have been a record attendance. 80 people turned up in person and about another 20 dialled in from multiple locations.

The huge level of interest must be a good thing for Victorian climbing regardless of any past disagreements.

Kevin Lindorff was elected President in a close ballot.
Paula Toal elected VP
James McIntosh secretary (unopposed)
Chen Wei treasurer (momentarily opposed by John Fischer in a partially comic interlude)
General Committee: 12 candidates for 7 positions so another ballot was held.
Ben Wright
Matt Brooks
Tori Dunn
Richard Ham
Phil Neville
Cameron Abraham
Claire Grubb
(from memory so apologies if I got one wrong).

regards

patto

25-Sep-2019
10:01:50 AM

On 24-Sep-2019 gordoste wrote:
>All of this mudslinging between different climbing groups is very counterproductive.
>If the two groups cannot work together to co-ordinate their efforts, we
>will fail.
>
>Personally I think it makes sense for ACAV to tackle the political and
>legal avenues, with VCC looking after climber education. The two should
>have some kind of arrangement to ensure they deliver consistent messages
>to media.
>
>It shouldn't be about one group "winning". It's about the two working
>together to support common goals.

Except maybe to a few individuals it was always about coordination and division of responsibilities. Again to most it had nothing to do with "winning". And again there wasn't that much mud slinging. In Australia we have FAR worse mud slinging in our state and federal elections.

What I can see made it divisive is that the VCC committee was MUCH more contested than usual given unusually high stakes role the VCC has found itself in. Some people didn't welcome the greater interest being shown in 'their' club.

All understandable reactions from both sides. Lets hope the new committee can work constructively together. It seems there are some newish returned faces and some more established members....

dalai

25-Sep-2019
12:03:30 PM

On 25-Sep-2019 gfdonc wrote:
>(from memory so apologies if I got one wrong).

Your memory is still good Steve.


Duang Daunk

25-Sep-2019
12:32:23 PM

On 25-Sep-2019 dalai wrote:
>On 25-Sep-2019 gfdonc wrote:
>>(from memory so apologies if I got one wrong).
>
>Your memory is still good Steve.

What? No Daliah representing us?
Given your track record here bro, I’m disappointed.

dalai

25-Sep-2019
1:28:38 PM

I was asked, but

1. had only rejoined the VCC last Saturday specifically to attend and vote
2. the other people who nominated will do a much better job than me and got so my votes


Crepuscular

25-Sep-2019
4:31:05 PM

On the face of it the VCC AGM outcome from yesterday sounds like a fairly good one. Congrats to those who were elected. I'm much more likely to rejoin next year now than if one 'group' or another had taken complete control. Hopefully the new committee will all be prepared to compromise a bit and listen to other club members and the broader climbing community perhaps a bit better than had previously been the case.

There are 56 messages in this topic.