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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
Making Tassie Wilderness a Sport Climbing Venue.

E. Wells
21-Mar-2019
4:21:31 PM
Im a rabid bolter , make no mistake , but when I read the new 'description' for Frenchmans Cap put up just now on 'thecrag.com' I just couldnt believe it. Please everyone , go and have a read. If anyone has the peace of mind to edit please do. Im too emotional right now.

Duang Daunk
21-Mar-2019
5:39:30 PM
On 21-Mar-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>Im a rabid bolter , make no mistake , but when I read the new 'description'
>for Frenchmans Cap put up just now on 'thecrag.com' I just couldnt believe
>it. Please everyone , go and have a read. If anyone has the peace of mind
>to edit please do. Im too emotional right now.

So bro, you’re suggesting that even glue mountains rabid types have limits?
Who’d have thought it?

That being the case, what are you gonna do about your crap filler routes before the access chooks come to roost in your backyard?

Goshen
21-Mar-2019
6:36:17 PM
I agree the description is more about one person frothing over the potential, rather than the reality of Frenchman's itself (I haven't been there). The first paragraph could at least be replaced with "there are lots of potential for new routes, including some major natural lines on surrounding cliffs".

< SNIP >
Known for its fantastic 400m high wall, Frenchmans Cap presents the longest vertical cliff in Australia. With 1,000+ unclimbed boulder problems, 1,000+ unclimbed sport routes and 1,000+ unclimbed trad routes it also presents another goldmine for those with an interest in new routing.

The rock is bullet hard quartzite, reminiscent of Arapiles in parts, but which - due to low traffic and the frost-shattering nature of the area - often has brittle sections or individual holds. Occasionally you will also find sections of "cardboard rock" - hard on the outside, but hollow, light and with questionable strength. Under no circumstances should you ever (a) view a route from directly under those climbing it, or (b) climb without a helmet.

Most lines to date follow obvious features and have enough natural gear to keep things sane, but holds abound over the entire cap and it's possible that sport routes - or more likely mixed routes - might spring up between the major lines over time. It's also possible they end up being the best routes of their kind in the country. If carrying hardware 24km in isn't your thing, never fear, there's trad climbing here for a lifetime.

There exist numerous entire cliffs in the region without a single route up them - some 200m+ in length and the king lines have by no means gone - witness La Grande Pump Cave's 50m rising traverse, or Sharland Peak's 150m continuous arete as just a couple of examples.
< /SNIP >

PS - As an advocate of mixed climbing, I'm not against the occasional piece of fixed gear; but maybe we should insist it should all be done by hand. That'll put the brakes on things a bit.

E. Wells
22-Mar-2019
2:24:53 AM
On 21-Mar-2019 Duang Daunk wrote:
>So bro, you’re suggesting that even glue mountains rabid types have limits?
>Who’d have thought it?
>
>That being the case, what are you gonna do about your crap filler routes
>before the access chooks come to roost in your backyard?

The bigbirds roost rather close to me , grinders at the ready. I guess I will climb them , enjoy them , and do my time in the big house. Any tips?

With the exception of one at Corroboree Im not sure which routes are filler though I suppose your point was to try and threaten me rather than be specific. Funnily enough I was bolting choss on Tuesday , complete with glued up/glued on holds. Its gonna be a classic. Just like my others at Birrabang Walls.

I would actually like to see one discreet glued in stainless br on pitch 6 of chimes , and have agreed with another climber who doesnt frequent here (hence the term 'climber') who has spent a bit of time there , about how awesome it would be to just blast up a fully bolted line out there at Frenchmans , kinda like doing to the wall what has been done to the walk in.... but the place is super fragile and the moment you have sport , the old gatekeeper routes will either never get done or get over retroed.
brent
22-Mar-2019
5:44:46 AM
No need to get overly emotional. The author of the description is against unnecessary bolting of routes and certainly wont be heading out there himself to bolt any of these potential lines. He's merely sharing his excitement for the place.
One Day Hero
22-Mar-2019
8:46:36 AM
On 22-Mar-2019 brent wrote:
>No need to get overly emotional.

Do you understand why this kind of stuff upsets people? We're talking about a world famous wilderness area which has a 50 year history both of climbing and people fighting epic campaigns to maintain wilderness in the face of vested interests who wanted to develop and exploit it. Many of the climbing pioneers were also involved in the environmental campaigns, some people have been climbing at Frenchmans for decades and feel that they are climbing custodians.

Then you get some random frother show up for his first trip and go on a massive online spray about how many sport routes you could smash in, with topo photos and beta on where they could go. No interest in the history, no concern for what the locals think. In the same spray, he's going on about how amazing The Lorax is (put up by a bloke who's apparently a pretty farking serious greeny). Maybe get in touch with that guy and ask him what his thoughts are for the future of the area? Nah, fuch that. Old mate knows best, he's the Marco Polo of an area which has been previously scoped by a thousand keen climbers who somehow didn't notice the potential.

And this shit is going on at every frigging crag in the country! Toolbags wander in, couldn't care less about getting to know the place, couldn't care less about the locals who have decades of experience at the cliff, and just get straight to work on how to make the crag better. It's already better! Because climbers with more discretion and taste than you have kept development down to a rational level, you gigantic narcissistic knob jockeys!

>The author of the description is against
>unnecessary bolting of routes and certainly wont be heading out there himself
>to bolt any of these potential lines. He's merely sharing his excitement
>for the place.

He's planting the seed and paving the way for some other idiot with ocd to go in there and start slinging bolts onto all those topos he posted up. If you guys are any older than nineteen, it's your responsibility to understand how this shit works.
kieranl
22-Mar-2019
11:15:31 AM
In light of what's currently happening in Gariwerd/Grampians it is useful to consider what is permitted at Frenchmans.

Frenchmans lies within the Wild Rivers National Park which is contained in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage area. As sch it is subject to the TWWHA Management Plan.

Here are some of the prescriptions regarding climbing from that Management Plan (pp 143-144) :

• The TWWHA will be predominantly maintained as a traditional climbing area.
• The establishment or maintenance of routes that are protected primarily or exclusively using fixed anchors (i.e. ‘sport’ climbs) is generally prohibited.
• Existing routes in the 2013 minor boundary extension that use fixed anchors may be maintained. New routes may be established in existing locations where fixed anchors are utilised subject to approval by PWS.
• Based on historical precedence, the occasional limited installation (or replacement) of permanent anchors at Mt Geryon, The Acropolis, Frenchmans Cap and Mt Anne is permitted.
• Written authority must be obtained from the PWS before using power-driven equipment to install or replace any permanent anchor in the TWWHA.
kieranl
22-Mar-2019
11:20:03 AM
I note that the sport-climbing rant has been amended substantially but some reference to the management plan conditions should be included.

edit: I've added notes about the management plan conditions in the Ethic part.

Goshen
22-Mar-2019
12:35:54 PM
wow; that's a great example of a management plan in an important area that references climbing, allows for it's history, and restricts (without complete banning) the installation of fixed anchors. The wording over sport routes is equally great... "Generally prohibited, permission required; no powertools".

If we could put forth to the over-zealous Parks Vic management (re SPA's in the Grampians), that with such wording it IS possible to protect special areas and still allow climbing... then I think we'd all get along.

Nerm
22-Mar-2019
2:38:27 PM
NB the CCT worked with Tas NPWS on that text. Probably should add a reference to it to the various thesarvo guides for the TWWHA.
kieranl
22-Mar-2019
3:18:45 PM
And it's a 2016 plan, not an outdated one from 2003.

shiltz
27-Mar-2019
7:36:10 AM
Thanks Kieran, interesting to know the plan includes climbing. Certainly one of the best crags in Australia, amazing atmosphere and environment!

E. Wells - I'm not sure why you'd want to add a bolt to Chimes. It seemed ok to me. Would you add one to the Ninth of January traverse as well?

ODH - I'm not sure why you always start with the assumption that you're the smartest person in the room and why you revert so frequently to personal insults. Something to ponder?

E. Wells
27-Mar-2019
2:59:11 PM
" I put a wig on you in the Hotel" ??! no. I never said that. I think sometimes you just see what you want to see.
tristosterone
28-Mar-2019
12:05:46 PM
The traverse on chimes seemed pretty out there to our party. Thought it was the hardest climbing on the route with serious consequence - that ledge that sticks out below. I’d hate to think what it’d be like when it was wet! That pitch was so out of character with the rest of the route which was well protected.

A bolt? Not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.
One Day Hero
28-Mar-2019
4:13:20 PM
On 27-Mar-2019 shiltz wrote:
>ODH - I'm not sure why you always start with the assumption that you're
>the smartest person in the room and why you revert so frequently to personal
>insults.

Well, when you wander into an online discussion about climbing development, half the room seems to be eating paste and shoving crayons up their arse. Over time that's affected how I open. Ce la vie.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
29-Mar-2019
7:35:23 AM
On 22-Mar-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 22-Mar-2019 brent wrote:
>>No need to get overly emotional.
>
>Do you understand why this kind of stuff upsets people? We're talking
>about a world famous wilderness area which has a 50 year history both of
>climbing and people fighting epic campaigns to maintain wilderness in the
>face of vested interests who wanted to develop and exploit it. Many of
>the climbing pioneers were also involved in the environmental campaigns,
>some people have been climbing at Frenchmans for decades and feel that
>they are climbing custodians.
>
>Then you get some random frother show up for his first trip and go on
>a massive online spray about how many sport routes you could smash in,
>with topo photos and beta on where they could go. No interest in the history,
>no concern for what the locals think. In the same spray, he's going on
>about how amazing The Lorax is (put up by a bloke who's apparently a pretty
>farking serious greeny). Maybe get in touch with that guy and ask him what
>his thoughts are for the future of the area? Nah, fuch that. Old mate knows
>best, he's the Marco Polo of an area which has been previously scoped by
>a thousand keen climbers who somehow didn't notice the potential.
>
>And this shit is going on at every frigging crag in the country! Toolbags
>wander in, couldn't care less about getting to know the place, couldn't
>care less about the locals who have decades of experience at the cliff,
>and just get straight to work on how to make the crag better. It's already
>better! Because climbers with more discretion and taste than you have kept
>development down to a rational level, you gigantic narcissistic knob jockeys!
>
>>The author of the description is against
>>unnecessary bolting of routes and certainly wont be heading out there
>himself
>>to bolt any of these potential lines. He's merely sharing his excitement
>>for the place.
>
>He's planting the seed and paving the way for some other idiot with ocd
>to go in there and start slinging bolts onto all those topos he posted
>up. If you guys are any older than nineteen, it's your responsibility to
>understand how this shit works.

An excellent con-text treatise of where Australian climbing is currently at!

On 27-Mar-2019 shiltz wrote:
>ODH - I'm not sure why you always start with the assumption that you're
>the smartest person in the room and why you revert so frequently to personal
>insults. Something to ponder?

On 28-Mar-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>Well, when you wander into an online discussion about climbing development, half the room seems to be eating paste and shoving crayons up their arse. Over time that's affected how I open. Ce la vie.

I too have pondered this.
I'm an older fart, ... and before I dissipate in the wind (thanks Kieranl!), I think this historical con-text stuff needs to be said - often.

Online discussions about climbing development seems to be the modern way climbers are exposed to where we have come from and where we are heading to, and although I don't always agree with ODHs' presentation style, the issues he succinctly points out are valid and I thank him for saying it. In my opinion ODH is one of those* in a fairly unique time-place. Old enough to have known mentors and climbing apprenticeship, but young and energetic enough to understand and care about how climbing is done these days.
(*There are others, and to keep the thread on track I'll mention the first Tasmanian one that comes to my mind - Tastrad ... though I appreciate the incongruity of lumping both those individuals under the same lable - heh, heh, heh.)

If old farts like myself rave on about how things are progressing we are written off as 'tradsters' and out of touch with the new reality, and our voices are too few these days anyway. I'm also noticing that the rabid bolters (thanks for the term E. Wells!), are unusually quiet at present too, as a few years ago the Chockstone discussions were much more vigorous when they defended their stance, so I can only assume that they have gone to ground as a result of the access issues presently affecting Victorian climbing. Fear of being outed, or suffering the oft threatened chopping retribution of their climbs? Doesn't matter, as we all lose if access goes against us...

There is room for all styles of climbing if respect by all involved; for each other, the environment, Aboriginal heritage, ... and our collective climbing history, is foremost in the way that we apply ourselves.
hpt
Online Now
1-Apr-2019
2:50:53 PM
ODH well said.

The good Dr
1-Apr-2019
7:03:43 PM
On 28-Mar-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 27-Mar-2019 shiltz wrote:
>>ODH - I'm not sure why you always start with the assumption that you're
>>the smartest person in the room and why you revert so frequently to personal
>>insults.
>
>Well, when you wander into an online discussion about climbing development,
>half the room seems to be eating paste and shoving crayons up their arse.
>Over time that's affected how I open. Ce la vie.

Damo, I would recommend getting off the crayons, particularly the red ones.

There are 18 messages in this topic.

 

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