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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 42
Author
Grampians Access - comments.

gremlin
18-Feb-2019
11:28:19 PM
After the announcement by Victorian Cliffcare on the 16th February 2019 of the plan to protest the closure of 8 crags to climbing, i have put my own personal thoughts below in how this affects indigenous people in Gariwerd (and worldwide). Iím particularly concerned about the continuation of the cultural genocide of indigenous people, their voices and their rights, as their culture is considered iconic of Gariwerd.

Gariwerd contains Victoriaís most significant and oldest indigenous rock art and sacred sites. The quality of the natural environment has given it world famous status. Images of blackfullas have featured international in calendars, videos, magazines and of course social media.

Gariwerdís caves are like nothing else on earth, and there are several individual rock art pieces that stand out as classics among the worlds cave painting community. The individual pieces are the reason indigenous people save for years to travel to Gariwerd and are the basis for the reason they stay. Many of these art galleries are located in the areas that have been banned.

Itís important to note that one gallery area is not comparable to another, they are not interchangeable, especially when it comes to cave areas. Indigenous people travel thousands of kilometers to Gariwerd to experience the physical and mental challenge of artworks across ceilings of pocketed rock. Closing a cave and expecting indigenous people to move elsewhere is equivalent to a cultural genocidal marathon. The appeal of Gariwerd is itís uniqueness. On a more practical side, a cave also offers all weather protection against the rain and sun, a key benefit for indigenous people all year round. This protection is a lifeline to indigenous travellers who are staying in the region for extended periods - most out-of-state indigenous people several weeks, if not months in the area when on an indigenous holiday (spending money in the region whilst doing so).

It is also important to note that indigenous people are not deliberately targeting modern climbing sites for vandalism. The couple of incidents made public recently were accidental damage to climbing sites unknown to the public. They were a tiny fraction of the thousands of indigenous people and sacred sites that exist in Gariwerd on a yearly basis without controversy. Indigneous existence has occurred in Gariwerd for more than 50,000 years as a valid recreational pursuit and it should be possible for this to continue within the right management plant and cooperation of climbers.

What can we do? The Bundja Bundja A&TSI Corp has taken on the mammoth task of reversing these bans and trying to halt further bans. They need your support (and money). Please help AND SHARE THIS!

The following is the list of banned areas and notes about each area.

THE GALLEY
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being infringed upon upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

BILLYWING BUTTRESS & BILLIMNA AREA
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

MILLENNIUM CAVES
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

CAVE OF MAN HANDS
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

LITTLE HANDS CAVE
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

GONDWANALAND
Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.

Ö we have some of the oldest artwork in human history in a cage to prevent people from vandalising it and youíre bitching you canít climb over the bits not inside the cage which arenít in direct sight of the general public.


Despite the books you read, the memes you like, and how progressive you think you are, you are white privilege and the direct oppressor of indigenous people.
Peter Bovino
19-Feb-2019
5:31:18 AM
Awesome

gordoste
19-Feb-2019
8:36:17 AM
Ouch. This will cut close to the bone :) You are spot on of course.
However, all expression of power must be justified. If some of the locations with bans in place actually have no indigenous artwork anywhere near them (which is a BIG if), then pushing back on the bans in those locations is not an action against indigenous people, but against abuse of power.
One Day Hero
19-Feb-2019
8:37:11 AM
On 18-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>After the announcement by Victorian Cliffcare on the 16th February 2019
>of the plan to protest the closure of 8 crags to climbing, i have put my
>own personal thoughts below in how this affects indigenous people in Gariwerd
>(and worldwide). Iím particularly concerned about the continuation of the
>cultural genocide of indigenous people, their voices and their rights,
>as their culture is considered iconic of Gariwerd.
>
>Gariwerd contains Victoriaís most significant and oldest indigenous rock
>art and sacred sites. The quality of the natural environment has given
>it world famous status. Images of blackfullas have featured international
>in calendars, videos, magazines and of course social media.
>
>Gariwerdís caves are like nothing else on earth, and there are several
>individual rock art pieces that stand out as classics among the worlds
>cave painting community. The individual pieces are the reason indigenous
>people save for years to travel to Gariwerd and are the basis for the reason
>they stay. Many of these art galleries are located in the areas that have
>been banned.
>
>Itís important to note that one gallery area is not comparable to another,
>they are not interchangeable, especially when it comes to cave areas. Indigenous
>people travel thousands of kilometers to Gariwerd to experience the physical
>and mental challenge of artworks across ceilings of pocketed rock. Closing
>a cave and expecting indigenous people to move elsewhere is equivalent
>to a cultural genocidal marathon. The appeal of Gariwerd is itís uniqueness.
>On a more practical side, a cave also offers all weather protection against
>the rain and sun, a key benefit for indigenous people all year round. This
>protection is a lifeline to indigenous travellers who are staying in the
>region for extended periods - most out-of-state indigenous people several
>weeks, if not months in the area when on an indigenous holiday (spending
>money in the region whilst doing so).
>
>It is also important to note that indigenous people are not deliberately
>targeting modern climbing sites for vandalism. The couple of incidents
>made public recently were accidental damage to climbing sites unknown to
>the public. They were a tiny fraction of the thousands of indigenous people
>and sacred sites that exist in Gariwerd on a yearly basis without controversy.
>Indigneous existence has occurred in Gariwerd for more than 50,000 years
>as a valid recreational pursuit and it should be possible for this to continue
>within the right management plant and cooperation of climbers.
>
>What can we do? The Bundja Bundja A&TSI Corp has taken on the mammoth
>task of reversing these bans and trying to halt further bans. They need
>your support (and money). Please help AND SHARE THIS!
>
>The following is the list of banned areas and notes about each area.
>
>THE GALLEY
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being infringed upon upon here,
>minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>BILLYWING BUTTRESS & BILLIMNA AREA
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon
>here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>MILLENNIUM CAVES
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon
>here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>CAVE OF MAN HANDS
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon
>here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>LITTLE HANDS CAVE
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon
>here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>GONDWANALAND
>Insert dominate white, status-quo yet slight progressive, pro-env, but
>male, capitalist, egotistical, justifiable, centrist creep, i didnít start
>the fire, itís out of sight, i was totes ignorant of reality, history has
>ended, but mah middle class priv rights are being totally infringed upon
>here, minimal someone else do it efforts, type excuse here.
>
>Ö we have some of the oldest artwork in human history in a cage to prevent
>people from vandalising it and youíre bitching you canít climb over the
>bits not inside the cage which arenít in direct sight of the general public.
>
>
>Despite the books you read, the memes you like, and how progressive you
>think you are, you are white privilege and the direct oppressor of indigenous
>people.

This isn't garden variety heckling. I may not agree with you on all the fine details, but I have a lot of professional respect for your sledging.

Goshen
19-Feb-2019
12:48:29 PM
I'll bite.

No-one is suggesting that Aboriginal peoples cannot have exclusive access to art sites, and important cultural sites (to the exclusion of recreational pursuits); and to be honest, throwing the white privilege thing at us constantly is insulting, given that most climbers are highly respectful of traditional groups and aboriginal heritage, as you can see by the comments.

Climbers ARE concerned about being removed from entire areas where no conflict occurs at all.

Regarding the individual sites, the question about the "Gallery" (given Parks Vic knows it as a popular climbing destination, and is not anywhere near artworks) was whether Aboriginal Victoria has actually requested this site to be closed, or whether someone at PV (whom is known to be waging a personal war with climbers) has decided it banned for other reasons.

"Gondwanaland" appears to be mistaken identity (of course it may not be), given it's a blank vertical wall 30mins walk uphill from a known (and caged) art site. If someone at PV has just looked at map, and crossed out the nearest climbing area, it is not doing it's job of protecting actual cultural sites.

Again, in case someone wants to bash me with it...
Climbers are respectful of heritage sites, and are going to be respectful of bans to individual crags where conflict with aboriginal heritage has been identified, but the process so far has been woeful.

Goshen








gremlin
19-Feb-2019
1:15:32 PM
This is about much more than just artwork, many significant sites just looks like a bit of bush to the uninitiated mind.

Climbers love to pay lip service, but like Kevin Rudd, its always nice words and completely hollow in action.


Reminder.

Parks Vic and the Australian Government don't own the Grampians, they committed genocide and stole it.
... this is what the whole treaty process is about.

As more First Nation's sovereign rights are properly recognised and rebuild their capacity to govern and manage their homelands, you guys are just going to have to suck it up and go climb somewhere else.

You do not own this land, nor does your government.
gfdonc
19-Feb-2019
1:15:53 PM
On 18-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>After the announcement by Victorian Cliffcare on the 16th February 2019
[snip]

Over the past 100 years or more, wit, irony and sarcasm has been an effective mechanism for elegantly pointing out where rationality has gone astray. This didn't qualify on any score.

gremlin
19-Feb-2019
1:27:00 PM
Soz, the original didn't have much meat in it to begin with anyway... ;)

Duang Daunk
19-Feb-2019
5:11:57 PM
On 19-Feb-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>This isn't garden variety heckling. I may not agree with you on all the
>fine details, but I have a lot of professional respect for your sledging.

You are easily pleased by a mish mash of juxtaposition and irony then bro.

If one tries to read it rationally then itís point becomes lost, other than the repetitious insinuation that climbers allegedly come across (to some) as white middle class wankers, which I totally refute because Iím a white lower class climber that is offended by the wankers that have precipitated this access mess.

The good Dr
19-Feb-2019
5:48:24 PM
Gremlin, you singled out white upper class males. What about all of the female climbers, what about the racial diversity in climbers, what about the other socio-economic groups, children, teenagers etc, etc. a pretty boring trope overall.
Nottobetaken
19-Feb-2019
7:00:19 PM
Nice bit of creative writing, although it would have been a little better if you had used some originality rather than the Ctrl Alt/Ctrl V function. I suspect there wasn't much option given the time of night in Brisbane after a lengthy day of surfing and other recreational Ďout of officeí pastimes (stereotyping is so much fun Ė isnít it?).

If you want to make a point about white supremacy and how a bunch of marauding invaders ruined an entire country's worth of free admission camping sites, then that's your prerogative, but you should probably make those complaints to the ones with a voice - typically located in major cities such as the one you currently live in. They are easy to find - normal habitat: large government buildings, TV channels and self-promoting websites. Particularly active during the season known as 'Elections'. Surely one of those people with a base salary of $207K will talk to youÖ

As for this forum, it's run and engaged by a small minority of down trodden outdoor enthusiastsí intent on enjoying the freedom of the hills. We are a different breed from the type of animal you have associated us with - the one that thrives on power, corruption and lies. In fact, we are so against that behaviour, we even named a climb after it.

If you have real issues with Ďthe white privilegedí infiltrating the Grampians, then you should focus your attention on the hordes of tourist buses depositing them into the Wonderland Range, Staplyton, Halls Gap and Rosea areas on a weekly basis. While you are at it, take a look at all the little yellow paint marks drawn onto the natural rock directing these oppressors to Parks initiated bolted-in viewing platforms of their choice. Marvel at the amount of graffiti that these culturally inept individuals painstakingly illustrate onto the natural walls of these venues while devouring Halls Gap ice creams, and be amazed by the vandalism of the caves you speak of by the government agency responsible for accommodating them in the name of Ďmanaging an expanding and diverse estate covering more than 4 million hectares of Victoriaí.

If you are in any doubt as to the culprits impacting Aboriginal artwork, then hereís a brief overview. Funnily enough, thereís no mention of climbers anywhereÖ.

https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/arts/why-australias-aboriginal-rock-art-will-disappear
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/traditional-owner-condemns-vandals-of-ancient-rock-art
https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/4256617/elders-outraged-by-grampians-graffiti/
https://www.mailtimes.com.au/story/4312314/man-charged-over-grampians-graffiti/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-18/sisters-rocks-vandalism-lost-children-picnics/10589348
https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2015/05/13/4234958.htm
The Rock Robster
19-Feb-2019
8:27:48 PM
On 19-Feb-2019 Nottobetaken wrote:
>...power, corruption and lies. In fact, we are so
>against that behaviour, we even named a climb after it.

Yeah but it's a good climb so what message does that send?

gremlin
20-Feb-2019
8:48:05 AM
Where is the indigenous voice in all of this? Or is your 'right' to climb more important than the rights of indigenous people to continue to maintain and develop the oldest continuous society in human history?

... just smells of pure mayo supremacy, big gov, capitalism and butthurt white guilt and blaming someone else to me, but damn are these privileged tears delicious! :)

Instead of barking at me, be progressive, get on the phone and talk with some local indigenous people and raise their voice instead of maintaining the dominate white male capitalist narrative.

https://www.gunditjmirring.com/

gremlin
20-Feb-2019
8:53:15 AM
... this is what happens when capitalism eats up your favourite past time and shits it back out as an easily accessible hobby complete with magazines and videos, look at surfing and skateboarding. ;)

Access and environmental issues are gonna start coming up a lot more frequently, like climate change, get used to it kiddos, you're behaviour is gonna need to change as well.

One Day Hero
20-Feb-2019
10:09:13 AM
On 19-Feb-2019 Duang Daunk wrote:
>You are easily pleased by a mish mash of juxtaposition and irony then
>bro.

Not true, for a couple of reasons.

Australian climbing has gone off the fuching rails over the last few decades, and needs a good hard kick in the nuts to get things back on track. I said this last year; 50 years of oz climbing and we were pretty much able to get away with whatever we wanted. That era ended recently, but a whole lot of dinosaurs are trying to carry on with business as usual.

Also, when did everyone just settle in to the comfortable sell-out of modern consumer climbing? It's awesome having a young indigenous climber who's also a proper commie tearing into the prana-wearing kombucha/instagram fuchwits.

Duang Daunk
20-Feb-2019
10:40:51 AM
On 20-Feb-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 19-Feb-2019 Duang Daunk wrote:
>>You are easily pleased by a mish mash of juxtaposition and irony then bro.
>
>Not true, for a couple of reasons.
>
>Australian climbing has gone off the fuching rails over the last few decades,
>and needs a good hard kick in the nuts to get things back on track. I said
>this last year; 50 years of oz climbing and we were pretty much able to
>get away with whatever we wanted. That era ended recently, but a whole
>lot of dinosaurs are trying to carry on with business as usual.
>
>Also, when did everyone just settle in to the comfortable sell-out of
>modern consumer climbing? It's awesome having a young indigenous climber
>who's also a proper commie tearing into the prana-wearing kombucha/instagram
>fuchwits.

I get what gremlin is getting at in an obscure fashion in the opening post, if that is what you are calling a good hard kick in the nuts.
Modern consumer sell-out climbing started with gyms and progressed to sport drilling outdoors. I've never been completely comfortable with that reality and suspect that you have at least changed your mind, if you ever were comfortable with it.
You are confusing your dinosaurs, as the real dinosaurs - often disparagingly referred to as tradsters, knew their craft and showed respect, but far from business as usual it is the new wave end of your era crew that are running their new business amok where they shouldn't be.

More power to gremlin, but will you still be lauding the rebellion when say the likes of Taipan is put off limits?
Nah, it won't happen I hear you saying, okay, substitute Booroomba instead, as the issues are similar when it comes to cultural acceptance!
As bro grem says...
>get used to it kiddos

gremlin
20-Feb-2019
10:42:47 AM
I f---ing love you ODH... but tankies can go in the f---ing bin along with fascists, big nation-states and cRapitalism.

... and how i wish i was young!

You young progressive millennials getting organised, making noise and getting ready to snatch that bread from these baby-boomer-dinosaurs-soon-to-be-compost, give me lots of hope.

... sell out consumer climbing is about as fun, interesting, alternative and progressive as a fancy cafe in Hasting St Noosa. Zzzzzzzzzzz....
One Day Hero
20-Feb-2019
11:23:32 AM
On 20-Feb-2019 gremlin wrote:
>... but tankies can go in the f---ing bin along with

Oops, I was being lazy and using commie as shorthand for legit left, as opposed to the neo-liberal latte-left (which seems to be where climbers come from these days).
One Day Hero
20-Feb-2019
12:48:08 PM
On 20-Feb-2019 Duang Daunk wrote:.
>Modern consumer sell-out climbing started with gyms and progressed to
>sport drilling outdoors. I've never been completely comfortable with that
>reality and suspect that you have at least changed your mind, if you ever
>were comfortable with it.

It started creeping in even earlier, with magazines, sponsored climbers, guiding as a 'career'. I was never interested in working in 'the industry' because it's always been very apparent that earning a living from pumping ever more people out onto the crags we claim to love would inevitably lead to a conflict of interest.

>You are confusing your dinosaurs, as the real dinosaurs - often disparagingly
>referred to as tradsters, knew their craft and showed respect, but far
>from business as usual it is the new wave end of your era crew that are
>running their new business amok where they shouldn't be.

A dinosaur is any species which has outlived the era in which its way of life was viable. The same way that society entrusts doctors to take driving licences off old people, we should be gently taking drills away from old farts who have lost the plot.

>More power to gremlin, but will you still be lauding the rebellion when
>say the likes of Taipan is put off limits?

That's the hard fuchin' question, isn't it? I would be bummed if we aren't allowed to climb on the best cliffs in the world anymore. But then I'm already bummed that while we have been allowed to climb there, some people abuse the privilege by shitting all over everything (metaphorically and literally).

I don't know the answer. The old trajectory was heading for the heart of the sun, hopefully things will get shaken to shit and settle onto a more rational, sustainable path.
rowan
20-Feb-2019
5:35:01 PM
I hope also climbers realise this isn't just these cliffs or just the Grampians. Or just a clash of cultures. I think this is a problem that runs much deeper. I think there is a culture of a lack of respect in general.

How do you talk about climbing? You ticked it? You sent it? You developed it? You crushed it? Your rockclimb? (As if you own it by installing some safety bolts and putting some foot long tick marks on the jugs.)

I'm sure I've made some mistakes. I for one am reflecting on how I have gone about things in the past. If you have your back up about this. You should probably have a look at yourself.

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