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Chockstone Photography
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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 205
Author
Grampians Access 2019
Tori_GMAC
7-Mar-2019
6:40:45 PM
On 7-Mar-2019 Dave J wrote:
>So it seems the bad word was " e x e c u t i v e"

Dave, I commend your thoroughness in dealing with the Chockstone server gremlins.
Tori_GMAC
7-Mar-2019
6:53:38 PM
On 7-Mar-2019 rudi wrote:
>There must be a legislative framework that defines precisely how this all
>works. All I have seen is general information that this has happened without
>identifying how it all works, and what our rights and obligations are exactly.

The VCC and Cliffcare have employed some quite clued-up lawyers, so hopefully your question can be elucidated in the near future. I'm sure there are rights we have a citizens to access our public lands, but I'm in the dark about the legal specifics also.
Rawpowa!
7-Mar-2019
6:59:14 PM
On 7-Mar-2019 Dave J wrote:
>On 7-Mar-2019 Tori_GMAC wrote:


>
>"I have just had a chat with a ranger (a friend who will remain nameless)
>about the access issues that climbers are dealing with I specifically asked
>for clarification on the new SPA's and how they will affect climbers, and
>climbing tour operation...
>
>
>The ranger indicated to me that all areas listed in the most recent update
>are indeed off limits to all recreational climbers; and that even Licenced
>Tour Operators (such as myself) might be in a legal grey-area accessing
>Summerday Valley..."
>part 2 coming For further clarification on my access rights I am being
>referred to a higher up E x e c u t i v e within the organisation I hope
>to have a constructive conversation with this person tomorrow.
>
>I told the ranger that my livelihood - and the livelihood of many local
>operators and instructors - depends on our ability to work in Summerday
>Valley (and other areas). I said that I felt the bans were rushed policy
>and that they have been poorly communicated to the broader climbing community.
>I said that I would fight these bans, and that I'll have to be physically
>stopped by 'compliance officers' from operating in an area that I pay a
>significant sum of money to PV and other bodies (insurance) to access.
>OK OK my blood was up a little; (I didn't expect the February SPA update
>to escalate to official PV policy so quickly) but my ranger friend agreed
>with me, and said we (the climbing community) should fight the bans, lest
>climbing in the entire Grampians be prohibited.
>
>Immediately after this call I spoke with the local member (Emma Kealy),
>who has been doing some background work on the climbing access issue. She
>has had meetings with Aboriginal Victoria and local indigenous groups.
>The state of affairs isn't entirely as it would seem from various Parks
>Victoria media releases. Emma hopes to raise the issue of access on the
>floor of the Victorian Parliament tomorrow, to get a better idea of how
>this policy has been formed, and why it is being pushed so strongly (and
>in such an opaque manner) by Parks Victoria.
>
>I'll add more when I know more."

I'm not at all surprised that the situation around aboriginal heritage isn't what PV is presenting it as, in the ABC interview with Simon Talbot he seemed to be saying the local tribes were surprised but happy when he informed them inferring there hadn't been a lot of consultation. And I'm glad politicians are getting involved, it's the only way this will get resolved in a sensible manner. I'd love to see some FOIs into PVs reasoning behind this.

On 7-Mar-2019 f_abe wrote:
>“We don’t necessarily need more visitations, we need better quality experiences
>... It’s not a good experience if you’re looking for a beautiful nature
>escape and you can’t get accommodation or you have to have a five-hour
>trip back to Melbourne,’’ Mr Talbot said.
>
>And there I was thinking a day at the Gallery or Millenium and a night
>around a fire at Buandik was as good as it gets.
>Shows what an idiot I was and how I've wasted so much of my life.
>I have complete faith in the touchy feely do gooder approach.
>This madness will end, common sense will prevail, and all user groups
>will be able to experience the magic of Grampians in whatever manner they
>see fit while respecting all other user groups.

You're wrong mate, the fact that you didn't spend $1000s on accommodation and lattes makes your experience worthless.
Dave J
7-Mar-2019
7:13:07 PM
Im generally curious about Dadswell's Bridge, which has also been d e c l a r e d an SPZ. Unlike say the relatively remote and unspoiled Eureka (just for example), it is a town of about 200, has a milk bar, and indian restaurant, a giant koala with laser beam eyes and a highway running right through it.
How exactly are they going to project this? and from what? Will they be closing down the highway? relocating the residents? banning the use of power tools. Or are SPZs only needing to protection from climbing? Total climbing ban throughout the town? no woodys, fingerboarding and absolutely no late night ascents of the koala.

f_abe
7-Mar-2019
7:13:38 PM
The benefits of a more aggressive, private sector response to parks come in both economics and education. “If people don’t see the beauty of nature then they’re not going to care about it,” he said. “And if they’re not going to care about it, they’re not going to protect (it).’’

I work in the government sector.
I get how it works.
An organisation supports an activity by helping construct an alternative access track to a place of recreation to avoid conflict with aboriginal heritage and ensure its long term viability (i.e. Gallery track that avoids the cave with artwork that I should know the name of cos I’ve walked past it a hundred time but can’t remember).
Then it gets memo from someone who has to justify their position.
This place of recreational activity is suddenly then banned by a knee jerk reaction to an event that took place many miles away because it happens to be nearest to the red circle they hastily drew on a map so their immediate superior can’t criticise them for not justifying their position.
To show it’s not a knee jerk reaction they draw a heap of red circles on their map and choose 8 at random to show they’re being fair and reasonable before they colour in the rest of their map in red.
The supervisor then passes this on to justify their position that they can justify the position of the people under them so they can justify their higher position and pay.
This person then re words whatever the justification is so the CEO can justify to the public why their department is so justifiable.
Somewhere along the line the original justification proved to be a little vague, so someone has the bright idea to raise the issue that was raised in 2003 but at the time effectively endorsed the recreational activity by publicly stating that a certain recreational activity was allowed despite the apparent grey area of being a banned activity. Lists were published stating the recreational activity was allowed following devastating fires and floods.
Everyone was happy back then.
But then someone received a memo.
In the meantime, 4wd’ers continue to plough up tracks, foreigners continue to litter their way up well made paths, often holding onto large railings that in no way compromise the beauty of the park. Aboriginal heritage is conveniently packaged in the “how quaint are those handprints, where do I buy a photo” behind iron cages, and paid glamping is seen as a much better way to protect the environmental and cultural heritage of the Grampians than people who might actually have a connection to the pace.
And I’m left to ponder the fact that the years (literally) I’ve spent soaking up the magic of the place are in fact completely worthless because…well…I don’t pay enough for them to be valid.
Tori_GMAC
7-Mar-2019
7:36:10 PM
On 7-Mar-2019 f_abe wrote:
>The benefits of a more aggressive, private sector response to parks come
>in both economics and education. “If people don’t see the beauty of nature
>then they’re not going to care about it,” he said. “And if they’re not
>going to care about it, they’re not going to protect (it).’’
>
>I work in the government sector.
>I get how it works.
>An organisation supports an activity by helping construct an alternative
>access track to a place of recreation to avoid conflict with aboriginal
>heritage and ensure its long term viability (i.e. Gallery track that avoids
>the cave with artwork that I should know the name of cos I’ve walked past
>it a hundred time but can’t remember).
>Then it gets memo from someone who has to justify their position.
>This place of recreational activity is suddenly then banned by a knee
>jerk reaction to an event that took place many miles away because it happens
>to be nearest to the red circle they hastily drew on a map so their immediate
>superior can’t criticise them for not justifying their position.
>To show it’s not a knee jerk reaction they draw a heap of red circles
>on their map and choose 8 at random to show they’re being fair and reasonable
>before they colour in the rest of their map in red.
>The supervisor then passes this on to justify their position that they
>can justify the position of the people under them so they can justify their
>higher position and pay.
>This person then re words whatever the justification is so the CEO can
>justify to the public why their department is so justifiable.
>Somewhere along the line the original justification proved to be a little
>vague, so someone has the bright idea to raise the issue that was raised
>in 2003 but at the time effectively endorsed the recreational activity
>by publicly stating that a certain recreational activity was allowed despite
>the apparent grey area of being a banned activity. Lists were published
>stating the recreational activity was allowed following devastating fires
>and floods.
>Everyone was happy back then.
>But then someone received a memo.
>In the meantime, 4wd’ers continue to plough up tracks, foreigners continue
>to litter their way up well made paths, often holding onto large railings
>that in no way compromise the beauty of the park. Aboriginal heritage is
>conveniently packaged in the “how quaint are those handprints, where do
>I buy a photo” behind iron cages, and paid glamping is seen as a much better
>way to protect the environmental and cultural heritage of the Grampians
>than people who might actually have a connection to the pace.
>And I’m left to ponder the fact that the years (literally) I’ve spent
>soaking up the magic of the place are in fact completely worthless because…well…I
>don’t pay enough for them to be valid.
>

Thankyou for posting this, it is on point.

I have just had a read of the Grampians Tourism 2016-2020 strategic marketing plan : https://grampianstourism.com.au/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/11/2016-20-Grampians-Tourism-Strategic-Plan-FINAL-PRINT.pdf. It's all about the mighty $$$ and in an ALT-F there isn't a single mention of climbing through the entire document.

A key partnership outlined in this document is with Parks Victoria, essentially an arm of the State Government.

*shrugs*

I'm struggling to understand who benefits from getting rid of climbers from the Grampians. The marketing plan is all about spend per stay per person . . . perhaps there is a perception that having climbers [a low paying user group] removed from the area will enrich the statistical data pool and get someone a promotion?
f_abe
7-Mar-2019
7:52:26 PM
Tori GMAC you are so right…and so wrong from a PV perspective.

Parks Victoria chief operating officer Simon Talbot is drawing on his experiences at the National Farmers Federation and retail giant Coles to encourage greater corporate and small-business activity, with a focus on food, beverage and accommodation to expand the nature dollar.

The bit that excites me the most is that under this ‘management’ l might receive a small plastic toy everytime I visit the Grampians and no doubt I will be able to purchase an album to store them in and trade any spares with my mates around my $295 glamping tent.
I’ve heard the toys may include a miniature HB giving the thumbs up next to a no climbing sign, some grizzled old trad monster looking grumpy cos that’s what they do and that’s what all climbers should look like, a happy looking chap holding a heap of $$$ signs cos that’s where environmental protection stems from, and some glamping tents with comfy beds.

Wendy
8-Mar-2019
4:12:50 AM
Has anyone found an email for Simon Talbot? In a fit of insomnia, I finally found time to write something for PV and politicians this morning and whilst it's easy to email pollies, Simon doesn't seem to want to hear from us.

I did find this though

https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/connect-with-us/complaints

Maybe if we all lodge formal complaints, PV will have to respond to them all? All that admin would at least make them notice us.
f_abe
8-Mar-2019
4:50:13 AM
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/parks-victoria-chief-simon-talbot-wants-business-role-in-tourism/news-story/e8de68f895b354d53cfd0eb9d6e82a9e?fbclid=IwAR1y6tddOlpFEeyKBuOzMe80ewBTT0zVIQqSyg4IvscQI5-szS5ceExx2ok

maybe you need a better business case to get some attention?

I'm not sure how seriously a government department will take our complaints but I'll send one off regardless, hopefully the time they spend handballing it between various internal departments will distract them from going bush and telling us to go away

JimmyS
8-Mar-2019
5:00:33 AM
It also seems all rather hypocritical, when Park plan on building a Super Highway walking trail through the Mt William Range and it's SPZ (with added track works, huts, toilets etc) to support a money grab at tourism, which in the long run will have a much larger impact (environmentally) on the Park than a few climbers bashing up to Scoop Rock to climb.

They reckon an extra 20,000 people a year with this Peaks Trail.

I feel that there is some underlining vendetta towards climbing, and the lack of 'big' business it draws. Simon Talbot is pissing in the wind, to push some sort of money making grab, to keep the cultural heritage folks happy.
Rawpowa!
8-Mar-2019
5:21:53 AM
This has always seemed like a poorly planned business decision. Did pv conduct a review when Talbot came in and this is the outcome? Interesting comments on Talbot when he left the NFF.
https://www.theland.com.au/story/3763700/talbot-in-shock-nff-departure/
kieranl
8-Mar-2019
5:53:15 AM
On 7-Mar-2019 rudi wrote:
>There must be a legislative framework that defines precisely how this all
>works. All I have seen is general information that this has happened without
>identifying how it all works, and what our rights and obligations are exactly.

The Grampians Management Plan 2003 can be found here :
https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/313281/grampians-np-mp.pdf

The legislative basis for the plan is given on page iv (page 6 in the PDF).

The section related to climing is on pages 42-43 (pdf pages 51-52)

Table 2 : Management Zones and Overlays, Page 9 (pdf 18)
Figure 2: Management Zones Map, Page 71 (pdf 79)
Appendix 2 : Special Protection Areas, Page 55 (pdf 64 )

post-edit : Most of the large area SPAs seem to be more about natural values rather than cultural heritage. Cultural heritage SPAs are often small areas, such as the sites near Summer Day
jacksonclimbs
8-Mar-2019
5:53:41 AM
I read a lot on the Access Fund, and have listened to a few podcasts with them, which have a lot of insights into access in the US. They do have more resources and more numbers than us - that's for sure. It does strike me though, that a lot is achieved there through just persistent, grass root activism.

Whilst climbers may be a small user group, we can pack a lot of weight on a per capita basis. Who else gives up the prospects of a career, or retires early, and moves to a regional town in order to pursue their interest in full? What other interest group has people who have been in the game for decades on end? What other interest group has a sport within it that is in the next Olympic games? What other group attracts people who will throw themselves unrelentingly at a seemingly arbitrary challenge, for years at a time?

We will be stronger together though. That was the struggle during the bolt wars in Yosemite, which you can read about on the Access Fund history page.

I recommend listening to the Enormocast episode 93, with Armando Menocal, the founder of the Access Fund, and episode 74, with Brady Robinson, recent AF ED.

Sure, we are not the US, but the issues and struggles share a lot in common.

JimmyS
8-Mar-2019
5:56:04 AM
The BMC in the UK have also done great work in regards of protecting climbing access, including purchasing land etc
kieranl
8-Mar-2019
6:12:51 AM
Among the stupidities of closing Summer Day is that this is the one climbing area of the park that is hardened for intensive use. People who would go there will now go to other sites which aren't hardened and damage those. Great lose-lose situation.

Parks and climbers have put a lot of work into Summer Day over the past 3 decades, in line with the Management Plan Strategy " further stabilise access to the base of
climbs at Summerday Valley". Why would this be part of the Management Plan if climbing there isn't permitted?
Dave J
8-Mar-2019
6:31:47 AM
On 8-Mar-2019 kieranl wrote:
>Among the stupidities of closing Summer Day is that this is the one climbing
>area of the park that is hardened for intensive use. People who would go
>there will now go to other sites which aren't hardened and damage those.
>Great lose-lose situation.

Agreed, The stapylton ban seems particularly poorly thought out sandanista, hollow mountain cave, loopys, summerday valley, all sites with a capacity to tolerate traffic (and will continue to receive large volumes of traffic even without climbers). Main motivation with this one seems (most likely) to be keeping climbers away from areas where they might be seen by other tourists.
silver_13
8-Mar-2019
7:00:30 AM
On 8-Mar-2019 kieranl wrote:
>On 7-Mar-2019 rudi wrote:
>>There must be a legislative framework that defines precisely how this
>all
>>works. All I have seen is general information that this has happened
>without
>>identifying how it all works, and what our rights and obligations are
>exactly.
>
>The Grampians Management Plan 2003 can be found here :
>https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/313281/grampians-np-mp.pdf
>
>The legislative basis for the plan is given on page iv (page 6 in the
>PDF).
>
>The section related to climing is on pages 42-43 (pdf pages 51-52)
>
>Table 2 : Management Zones and Overlays, Page 9 (pdf 18)
>Figure 2: Management Zones Map, Page 71 (pdf 79)
>Appendix 2 : Special Protection Areas, Page 55 (pdf 64 )
>

Accordingly to Table 3 (pdf page 11), Special Protection Areas are <<1% of Park ??

>post-edit : Most of the large area SPAs seem to be more about natural
>values rather than cultural heritage. Cultural heritage SPAs are often
>small areas, such as the sites near Summer Day
>

Yes.

ajfclark
8-Mar-2019
7:53:46 AM
Looking in the wayback machine I found the original issue of the management plan PDF. The maps in the appendixes are vector images, not raster, so they handle zooming:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050622211010/http://www.parkweb.vic.gov.au/resources/07_0938.pdf

Interesting that somewhere along the line this document was changed.
armstp
8-Mar-2019
7:53:57 AM
I think people are downplaying the economic value of climbers too much. As PV have noted there are now thousands of climbers visiting the Grampians annually.

I would suggest that the old dirt bag bush camping model of climbers relates to a minority of the total number of people visiting who climb. In the modern world a number of those climbers are family groups looking for moderate routes, including top roping, and Summerday Valley is a major draw card in that regard. Quite a number of climbers in this category stay in paying campgrounds or cabins because they want civilised facilities.

I have met climbers staying at Mt Zero Cabins to climb at Summerday. Climbers eat in restaurants in Halls Gap at night, they go to Livefast for coffee and cake, they go for lunch at Mt Zero Olives when it is open. Closing so many areas will impact on the number of those climbing visitors, and the frequency with which they will visit the Grampians.

On the subject of keeping climbers away from tourists my experience is that the average tourist likes seeing climbers. Quite frequently when I have been climbing in fairly public places walkers have stopped for a friendly chat and to watch the action [or lack of it].
jacksonclimbs
8-Mar-2019
8:30:37 AM
I'd note that as a climber, I'm often telling non-climbing tourists that taking their dog into the park, or using drones, is against park rules.

I'll often find myself giving them advice on things to do and see, pointing out wildlife or where tracks go.

Last year I spent about 40 days climbing in the Grampians, despite living in Melbourne. We regularly eat at towns along the way to the Grampians, like Ararat. We buy fuel and other necessities along the way, and eat in Halls Gap, and in Horsham. We do bush camp, but that's because 40*$35/night for camping would have cost $1400 for the year. I'd happily pay for an annual pass model that was more reasonable though.

Simon Talbot does bring up a good point about quality of experiences though - even if we have different ideas on what a quality experience is. Certainly if we were limited to 4 crags, that would significantly limit the quality of the climbing experience in the Grampians. Part of what makes it great is getting around and exploring the whole place and hiking in to some remote area to get up a stunning piece of rock - standing at the top and looking out with a perspective you haven't seen before. Closing off whole areas - like the whole South of the Gramps reduces the variety of the climbing experience. I think it's important that we're still able to go into areas across the entire region. i.e. important that crags within the SPAs remain open, even if some are closed for cultural or environmental reasons.

Hopefully next time Simon gets on the mic on the radio he might communicate that he has an appreciation for quality in the climbing respect - and not just riff off a statistic about the percentage of climbing locations that remain open.

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