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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 6 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 205
Author
Grampians Access 2019
Dave J
8-Mar-2019
9:00:07 AM
On 8-Mar-2019 armstp wrote:
>I think people are downplaying the economic value of climbers too much.
> As PV have noted there are now thousands of climbers visiting the Grampians
>annually.

Agreed,

Also I can think of a lot of professionals in Horsham or Natimuk who could work anywhere but choose to to work, live and spend here because of the climbing. I would have put in maybe a couple of million in the time that I've been here (and I wouldn't have chosen to move here in the current circumstances). If the government is keen on getting people to relocate to regional Vic then climbing has to be one of the shining success stories there. I'm not saying that climbers didn't bring the current situation down on themselves but to argue that climbers contribute nothing to the culture or the economy of the area is a bit of a stretch. I imagine Natimuk would be a lot more like Pimpinio if it weren't for climbing.

>(snip)
>On the subject of keeping climbers away from tourists my experience is that the >average tourist likes seeing climbers. Quite frequently when I have been climbing in >fairly public places walkers have stopped for a friendly chat and to watch the action [or >lack of it].

Yes. Makes it easier to demonise a user group (us) if other people don't have any contact with them.

The good Dr
8-Mar-2019
10:46:47 AM
On 7-Mar-2019 armstp wrote:
>I had a chat with a Ranger at Hollow Mt car park today. She informed us
>that Summerday Valley and Hollow Mt are closed to climbing as of Wednesday
>last week. They are still open for licensed operators guiding and running
>outdoor ed. Interestingly there are no signs up to this effect, and the
>PV notice board telling visitors all about the good climbing at Summerday
>Valley and Hollow Mountain still greets you at the start of the walking
>track into the cliffs.
>
>The bottom line according to her is that all of the areas marked as Protected
>on the map that PV have issued are closed to climbing. Which is an awful
>lot of the Grampians.
>

If the areas are closed to climbing then one would presume that is all climbers. Are commercial groups climbing … yes … does the ban apply … apparently no … WTF.

Allowing commercial operators appears to be a back stop so that PV do not open themselves to litigation.

This looks to be getting quite messy.

The Management Plan itself is full of inconsistencies (e.g. the SPA Table 3, page 11, Special Protection Areas are <<1% of Park whereas the maps indicate that they are a considerable area of the park) and the written sections are contradictory and vague. Would hate to see the legal tangles that all this could generate. Also the parks list of areas open to climbing released over time (due to bush fires) and when this blew up just adds to the PV mess.

Duang Daunk
8-Mar-2019
11:07:25 AM
On 8-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>(cut) This looks to be getting quite messy.
>The Management Plan itself is full of inconsistencies (cut)

When it goes to court, like access issues in good old USofA have often done, these things will help our cause, as I have no faith in gubment PV backing down any time soon, especially given it’s not like us general public shareholders can vote PV ceo/chairman out of office.

I also hope VCC access and co, have backed up copies of these inconsistencies available for that day.

... and yeh, it seems that there is another political agenda behind this bullshit.

On 7-Mar-2019 thisrod wrote:
>> If I can’t go legitimately climbing in areas that were legit before as
>a result of their stupidity, then it makes me feel like chopping some of
>their still currently legit routes elsewhere to let them know how I’m feeling...
>
>Wow.
>
>What's that thing they say in the Police force? Oh right, I remember:
>thank goodness that crooks are stupid.
>

Doesn’t change how I FEEL.
Wankers who have crueled my access to legit climbing need to pay a price if my climbing access has been crueled by their actions.
Chopping their “look at me, look at me” routes is much more in-house than the next level of Nowra-esk stuff like breaking into cars and shitting on their gear.

thisrod, I see you are a Qlder; a hypothetical question for you, how would you FEEL if Frog was suddenly taken off you because of stupid bolting?


rodw
8-Mar-2019
12:01:47 PM
Except bolting isnt just the issue here, one of many according to PV, which is must be considering the massive ares they have blocked that have no bolting.
thisrod
8-Mar-2019
12:14:45 PM
> Doesn’t change how I FEEL.

Clearly I was being too subtle. To rephrase what you posted, "Hey, guess what, all you park rangers and associated law enforcement who are rumoured to lurk on this forum. I Know Who Dunnit!"

If the crooks and their associates are getting away with that sort of bragging, it would suggest that their crimes are being treated somewhat less seriously than Parks Victoria claims.

Actually I'm in Melbourne now, should update the profile.

Duang Daunk
8-Mar-2019
12:22:26 PM
On 8-Mar-2019 thisrod wrote:
>If the crooks and their associates are getting away with that sort of
>bragging, it would suggest that their crimes are being treated somewhat
>less seriously than Parks Victoria claims.
>
?
Dunno about them bragging, and PV have made their response clear... but the sledgehammer used has clobbered the likes of you and me too, along with original perps.
Regarding the less serious bit, hence how I feel...
Access T CliffCare
8-Mar-2019
1:07:46 PM
GRAMPIANS/GARIWERD UPDATE
Posted on March 8, 2019

Following a number of recent reports of rangers asking climbers to leave climbing areas in the Grampians/Gariwerd, more confusion has occurred around where people can and can’t climb.

The maps and information supplied by Parks Victoria (PV) note the old and new SPAs. It also contains eight focus sites contained within one particular SPA which is marked in blue where, as noted by PV, signs will be erected and enforcement activity will occur.

PV has said that in the coming months it will be working with stakeholders and the climbing community to review these areas. However, for many in the climbing community this messaging is ambiguous and many have taken it to mean that for now climbing is only banned in those eight areas, and the other areas will be up for review following a collaborative consultation process.

Climbers have respected the initial bans but with the recent ranger activity in other areas, this has further confused the situation.

Official clarification on the situation has not yet been provided, so at this point of time we can only reiterate what we have noted previously:



Please respect all bans that have been put in place by PV. If you hear of anyone who is planning to climb in any of these areas, please inform them of the ban.

The working group is committed to collaborating with land managers and other stakeholders to ensure a fair and transparent process.

We have submitted a formal request to PV seeking clarification on closures and process.


INTERACTIONS WITH RANGERS

Rangers have reportedly been telling climbers to vacate crags across the Grampians/Gariwerd that are inside SPAs. If you do meet rangers either at the crags, campgrounds or car parks, please be courteous but inquisitive about the climbing bans. Ask them what they personally think of the bans and what actions they have been told by management to perform. Be a good spokesperson for climbers and let them know how much you enjoy the Grampians/Gariwerd.

An authorised officer of PV can only ask for your name or ask you to leave if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to believe that you’re doing something wrong.

WHAT YOU CAN DO

Given that penalties could be imposed, it’s important to be calm and polite when speaking to an authorised officer.

Ask them:

Who they are by politely asking them to produce identification.
To see a map of the banned areas.
About the legal position.
About alternative climbing locations that you can go to.
If you’re asked for your name and address or asked to leave, ask what their grounds are for doing so.


We have limited information about exactly why these areas have been banned so any information is important. IMPORTANT – Please send any info about interactions with rangers to VCC Cliffcare cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au.


GRAMPIANS ACCESS WORKING GROUP
Tori_GMAC
8-Mar-2019
2:06:40 PM
On 8-Mar-2019 Access T CliffCare wrote:
>GRAMPIANS/GARIWERD UPDATE
>Posted on March 8, 2019
>
>Following a number of recent reports of rangers asking climbers to leave
>climbing areas in the Grampians/Gariwerd, more confusion has occurred around
>where people can and can’t climb.
>
>The maps and information supplied by Parks Victoria (PV) note the old
>and new SPAs. It also contains eight focus sites contained within one particular
>SPA which is marked in blue where, as noted by PV, signs will be erected
>and enforcement activity will occur.
>
>PV has said that in the coming months it will be working with stakeholders
>and the climbing community to review these areas. However, for many in
>the climbing community this messaging is ambiguous and many have taken
>it to mean that for now climbing is only banned in those eight areas, and
>the other areas will be up for review following a collaborative consultation
>process.
>
>Climbers have respected the initial bans but with the recent ranger activity
>in other areas, this has further confused the situation.
>
>Official clarification on the situation has not yet been provided, so
>at this point of time we can only reiterate what we have noted previously:
>
>
>
>Please respect all bans that have been put in place by PV. If you hear
>of anyone who is planning to climb in any of these areas, please inform
>them of the ban.
>
>The working group is committed to collaborating with land managers and
>other stakeholders to ensure a fair and transparent process.
>
>We have submitted a formal request to PV seeking clarification on closures
>and process.
>
>
>INTERACTIONS WITH RANGERS
>
>Rangers have reportedly been telling climbers to vacate crags across the
>Grampians/Gariwerd that are inside SPAs. If you do meet rangers either
>at the crags, campgrounds or car parks, please be courteous but inquisitive
>about the climbing bans. Ask them what they personally think of the bans
>and what actions they have been told by management to perform. Be a good
>spokesperson for climbers and let them know how much you enjoy the Grampians/Gariwerd.
>
>An authorised officer of PV can only ask for your name or ask you to leave
>if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to believe that you’re doing something
>wrong.
>
>WHAT YOU CAN DO
>
>Given that penalties could be imposed, it’s important to be calm and polite
>when speaking to an authorised officer.
>
>Ask them:
>
> Who they are by politely asking them to produce identification.
> To see a map of the banned areas.
> About the legal position.
> About alternative climbing locations that you can go to.
>If you’re asked for your name and address or asked to leave, ask what
>their grounds are for doing so.
>
>
>We have limited information about exactly why these areas have been banned
>so any information is important. IMPORTANT – Please send any info about
>interactions with rangers to VCC Cliffcare cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au.
>
>
>GRAMPIANS ACCESS WORKING GROUP

Well, I just got off the phone with Rhonda McNeil - Area Chief Ranger for the Grampians National Park.

We had a polite conversation regarding access issues. She confirmed that all new SPA's are off-limits to recreational climbers, but that LTO's will be able to continue their climbing activities as per normal.

I have been working at Summerday Valley all week, and there is no signage to indicate that Summerday Valley or the Hollow Mountain area is off-limits. I said that given the Labour Day long weekend, there will surely be many visiting climbers/boulderers to the area, blissfully unaware of the closures. I specifically asked her whether or not there would be any enforcement this weekend, if climbers inside SPA exclusion zones in the Hollow Mountain area are likely to be confronted by rangers.

She didn't answer directly, but she did say that ALL the [compliance] efforts by Parks Victoria in the Grampians will be directed towards the 8 sites initially closed in the Victoria Range.

I mentioned that the communication between PV and the climbing community could be better, and that there is a lot of angst and confusion amongst the community, I questioned her on whether or not the SPA zones will be re-opened to climbers in the future, and she did indicate that this would possibly occur, as the new management plan is drafted. There will be a 'reference group' that will determine how climbing should proceed in the Grampians - can bolts be used, can bouldering continue, etc etc etc. She has a meeting in Melbourne next week to determine the 'terms of reference' for this 'reference group'.

She said that her hope, and the hope of some other people [assuming within PV] is that there will be a place for climbing in the Grampians.

So, the conversation ended on a somewhat positive note; but the sour taste of force-fed SPA's still persists . . .

The good Dr
8-Mar-2019
7:46:27 PM
Tori_GMAC wrote:

>
>Well, I just got off the phone with Rhonda McNeil - Area Chief Ranger
>for the Grampians National Park.
>
>We had a polite conversation regarding access issues. She confirmed that
>all new SPA's are off-limits to recreational climbers, but that LTO's will
>be able to continue their climbing activities as per normal.
>
If this conversation is correct then PV is digging deeper holes. The clients climbing with the LTO's are recreational climbers in most cases and defining the difference is basically impossible.

BTW. As Tracy noted, ask for a detailed topographical map of the SPA areas that the rangers are using as a reference. Also ask for the PV definition of recreational climber that legally distinguishes you from a recreational climber as an LTO client.

If possible a video record of the interaction if possible (it is not illegal to do this). Please make sure that if you do this you politely say that you are recording this to help spread the message.

Tori_GMAC
9-Mar-2019
6:58:52 AM
On 8-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>Tori_GMAC wrote:
>
>>
>>Well, I just got off the phone with Rhonda McNeil - Area Chief Ranger
>>for the Grampians National Park.
>>
>>We had a polite conversation regarding access issues. She confirmed that
>>all new SPA's are off-limits to recreational climbers, but that LTO's
>will
>>be able to continue their climbing activities as per normal.
>>
>If this conversation is correct then PV is digging deeper holes. The clients
>climbing with the LTO's are recreational climbers in most cases and defining
>the difference is basically impossible.
>
>BTW. As Tracy noted, ask for a detailed topographical map of the SPA areas
>that the rangers are using as a reference. Also ask for the PV definition
>of recreational climber that legally distinguishes you from a recreational
>climber as an LTO client.
>
>If possible a video record of the interaction if possible (it is not illegal
>to do this). Please make sure that if you do this you politely say that
>you are recording this to help spread the message.
>
>

The conversation is 'correct'. I had a follow up call from Tim Shepherd (Senior Manager Commercial Agreements with PV). He confirmed that LTO's will be able to operate as per usual until a review [next year] in relation to an updated management plan.
gfdonc
9-Mar-2019
7:46:06 AM
I have been privy to the following communication which came from 'high up' in Parks:
Climbing in the 8 identified and
Signed cultural heritage areas will lead to prosecution.

Climbing in the SPA's where litter, veg clearing or rock bolting occurs will lead to prosecution.

Climbing in SPA's in an appropriate manner will not lead to prosecution.

(dated: 7 March)

I refrain from quoting further but it indicates later in the same comms that some staff at Parks were acting inconsistently with the above and Parks management are sorting out that issue internally.
regards
Johnie2.5
9-Mar-2019
11:41:26 AM
Just got the following from parks in reply to my complaint regarding access..


Hi ####



Thank you for your email regarding climbing in the Grampians National Park. Your support in leaving no trace, using clean climbing techniques and encouraging your peers to do the same is greatly appreciated.



Parks Victoria is currently only undertaking enforcement activities to prevent rock climbing at those eight key locations marked with blue squares on the maps on our website and signage is installed at these locations. In the broader Special Protected Areas (outside the eight key areas), Parks Victoria undertaking enforcement activity relating to activities not permitted in any National Park such as cutting or damaging vegetation (for instance to make or enhance tracks or from the use of drop mats), lighting fires outside of designated fireplaces, depositing litter, interfering with Aboriginal cultural heritage such as rock art or any damage to rock faces such as drilling holes.



Over the coming months, Parks Victoria will be reviewing the Grampians National Park Management Plan. A Stakeholder Reference Group will be established where Parks Victoria will meet with affected partners, Licenced Tourism Operators, stakeholder groups and local businesses – including the rock climbing community - to identify where in the Grampians National Park climbing can continue. Special Protection Area boundaries may change.



We will share further information as this process progresses to ensure you are best informed to determine where you choose to live, work and holiday in future. We acknowledge the physical, social and economic benefits climbing brings to our communities, and understand the rock climbing community cares passionately about the Grampians National Park.



Thanks,



Parks Victoria

Level 10, 535 Bourke Street
Melbourne VIC 3000

www.parks.vic.gov.au







Jamesmc
9-Mar-2019
2:14:36 PM
So does this mean it’s OK to place safety bolts outside the Special Protection Areas?
jrc
9-Mar-2019
6:09:41 PM
View from an occasional nsw visitor who appreciates Gariwerd - since 1967 - James, I wouldn’t push it. If what you want to do needs a bolt maybe Climb something else for now. Read what PV wrote.

SPZs can grow faster than climbers. Weve seen that in the last month.

I suspect the “we’re climbers - we know what we are doing - f you - we will merrily bolt whatever” might just have worn a bit thin with authorities and indigenous groups. Btw We are no better here in nsw maybe just luckier - for the moment.

Pilots who fly under the radar live longer ( unless they fly into the radar mast).


Rawpowa!
9-Mar-2019
6:20:08 PM
On 9-Mar-2019 jrc wrote:
>View from an occasional nsw visitor who appreciates Gariwerd - since 1967
>- James, I wouldn’t push it. If what you want to do needs a bolt maybe
>Climb something else for now. Read what PV wrote.
>
>SPZs can grow faster than climbers. Weve seen that in the last month.
>
>I suspect the “we’re climbers - we know what we are doing - f you - we
>will merrily bolt whatever” might just have worn a bit thin with authorities
>and indigenous groups. Btw We are no better here in nsw maybe just luckier
>- for the moment.
>
>Pilots who fly under the radar live longer ( unless they fly into the
>radar mast).
>
>
>
Yes I agree John, maybe this was a negotiating tactic with the new management plan coming up. But I think there needs to be serious discussion about a ban on new routes in the Grampians. Let's face it anything that goes up now isn't going to be the killer lines. I guess it would mean maybe the climbing was limited at the cutting edge of climbing, but the route that apparently sparked this at Black Ian's was a woeful filler route that could have been protected with boulder pads and wouldn't have been climbed by anyone with half a brain after seeing the art there. Is it really worth poking the bear over these routes?

The good Dr
10-Mar-2019
6:12:06 AM
On 9-Mar-2019 Rawpowa! wrote:
>On 9-Mar-2019 jrc wrote:
>>View from an occasional nsw visitor who appreciates Gariwerd - since
>1967
>>- James, I wouldn’t push it. If what you want to do needs a bolt maybe
>>Climb something else for now. Read what PV wrote.
>>
>>SPZs can grow faster than climbers. Weve seen that in the last month.
>>
>>I suspect the “we’re climbers - we know what we are doing - f you - we
>>will merrily bolt whatever” might just have worn a bit thin with authorities
>>and indigenous groups. Btw We are no better here in nsw maybe just luckier
>>- for the moment.
>>
>>Pilots who fly under the radar live longer ( unless they fly into the
>>radar mast).
>>
>>
>>
>Yes I agree John, maybe this was a negotiating tactic with the new management
>plan coming up. But I think there needs to be serious discussion about
>a ban on new routes in the Grampians. Let's face it anything that goes
>up now isn't going to be the killer lines. I guess it would mean maybe
>the climbing was limited at the cutting edge of climbing, but the route
>that apparently sparked this at Black Ian's was a woeful filler route that
>could have been protected with boulder pads and wouldn't have been climbed
>by anyone with half a brain after seeing the art there. Is it really worth
>poking the bear over these routes?

One of the sad, crazy and ironic things regarding the current furore is that the person responsible for the Black Ian's debacle is a guide who can continue to operate in the grampians.
Nottobetaken
10-Mar-2019
9:02:27 AM
On 10-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>One of the sad, crazy and ironic things regarding the current furore is that the person responsible for the Black Ian's debacle is a guide who can continue to operate in the grampians.

What is with this policy amongst climbers of 'he who must not be named' bullshit? I've seen this before in other states whereby an incident has occurred that has gone completely against what the majority of climbers believe in and uphold - only for the perpetrator to remain 'anonymous' despite several well known people having the knowledge of exactly who it was in the first place.

That said, it's pretty clear that PV had this on their radar to begin with, and no amount of stakeholder meetings or otherwise was going to change that. It seems PV are operating on a 'depends who you talk to' policy - and deliberately confusing the issue through inconsistent and/or lack of communication toward the climbing community. Not even Cliffcare understands the picture and in many cases simple phone calls by climbers themselves or face to face meetings are gaining more clarity. This is obviously a PV strategy, as the more climbers are confused by what closures are in place, the more climbers will confront the situation with Parks officials on the ground, leading to some pretty colourful conversations. If I drive 6 hours from Adelaide, 14 hours from Sydney, or 4 from Melbourne - only to be met by a PV ranger telling me that xxx area that I'm in is closed only to climbers (despite no communication otherwise/no signage/and contrary to notifications on their website/ABC radio interviews and the like - I'll be telling them where they can stick that.

Finally, so much for...
On 15-Feb-2019 ademmert wrote:
>On 14-Feb-2019 gordoste wrote:
>>Let's be clear - this is a test to see if climbers can be trusted to police ourselves. If we do not obey the ban, the areas will never be re-opened. If we prove we can respect others, we will get respect in return and can start a conversation about whether some of the areas can be partially reopened.

Clearly this is utter bullshit.



Duang Daunk
10-Mar-2019
11:30:15 AM
On 10-Mar-2019 Nottobetaken wrote:
>On 10-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>>One of the sad, crazy and ironic things regarding the current furore
>is that the person responsible for the Black Ian's debacle is a guide who
>can continue to operate in the grampians.
>
>What is with this policy amongst climbers of 'he who must not be named'
>bullshit? I've seen this before in other states whereby an incident has
>occurred that has gone completely against what the majority of climbers
>believe in and uphold - only for the perpetrator to remain 'anonymous'
>despite several well known people having the knowledge of exactly who it
>was in the first place.
>
Agreed bro.
Name and shame to let them deal with PV for their misdeeds, instead of us being squished for them.

>That said, it's pretty clear that PV had this on their radar to begin
>with, and no amount of stakeholder meetings or otherwise was going to change
>that. It seems PV are operating on a 'depends who you talk to' policy -
>and deliberately confusing the issue through inconsistent and/or lack of
>communication toward the climbing community. Not even Cliffcare understands
>the picture and in many cases simple phone calls by climbers themselves
>or face to face meetings are gaining more clarity. This is obviously a
>PV strategy, as the more climbers are confused by what closures are in
>place, the more climbers will confront the situation with Parks officials
>on the ground, leading to some pretty colourful conversations. If I drive
>6 hours from Adelaide, 14 hours from Sydney, or 4 from Melbourne - only
>to be met by a PV ranger telling me that xxx area that I'm in is closed
>only to climbers (despite no communication otherwise/no signage/and contrary
>to notifications on their website/ABC radio interviews and the like - I'll
>be telling them where they can stick that.
>
I dunno. PV is a bureaucratic unwieldy organisation. Shit happens under its own momentum, but I acknowledge your conspiracy theory in as much as it only takes one flavour perpetuated from a strategic level within it to colour the general agenda.

>Finally, so much for...
>On 15-Feb-2019 ademmert wrote:
>>On 14-Feb-2019 gordoste wrote:
>>>Let's be clear - this is a test to see if climbers can be trusted to
>police ourselves. If we do not obey the ban, the areas will never be re-opened.
>If we prove we can respect others, we will get respect in return and can
>start a conversation about whether some of the areas can be partially reopened.
>
>Clearly this is utter bullshit.
>
Yeh, benefit of the doubt touchy feely thinking there for sure, especially while ever we don’t even out the original perps, not that it’ll make a zip of difference now I’m guessing. Still it’d make me feel a whole lot better to throw them under the bus for the greater good!

... And on the “what’s with” flavour, I’d expect some kind of PV sanction on a LTO miscreant for bolting over indigenous art, so why hasn’t it happened? At the least it’d break down the us and them distinction from our perspective and if there’s any justice (karma?) then PV could rightfully refocus their attention towards sensible middle ground.

ajfclark
10-Mar-2019
12:09:13 PM
Black Ians and Black Range were two separate incidents.
Bomber
11-Mar-2019
1:56:54 PM
On 10-Mar-2019 The good Dr wrote:
>One of the sad, crazy and ironic things regarding the current furore is that the person responsible for the Black Ian's debacle is a guide who can continue to operate in the grampians.

>What is with this policy amongst climbers of 'he who must not be named' bullshit? I've seen this before in other states whereby an incident has occurred that has gone completely against what the majority of climbers believe in and uphold - only for the perpetrator to remain 'anonymous' despite several well known people having the knowledge of exactly who it was in the first place.

I haven’t been on this site for many years as I found that it was primarily run by a few individuals who if they disagree with what your saying just ban you from any further input
Neil Monteith you know what I’m talking about having banned me multiple times !!!
But I wanted to weigh in with my two cents worth as I’m very upset about the current situation in the Grampians.. so made a new profile to do so

A lot of people are angry that a couple of people have bolted in the Grampians, the focus has been on the individuals that bolted next to rock art... yes that was incredibly selfish and stupid, and it can not be allowed to ever happen again! But it’s not really about those two cases, it’s been common knowledge that the rate of expansion and the grid boltingof many many areas has been happening for many years now and I’ve been telling anybody who will listen that it’s got to stop!

A very special climb that is a three star classic is great and we all love those... but if you go and see all the cliffs that have been bolted because there are lines that will go... not good lines not even average lines, but complete rubbish, then you have to think why was this done? And then many here have also said “who” well I propose a bolt count in the Grampians... lets pick up our guide books and actually count who has placed the most bolts in the Grampians.

It’s going to be interesting to see when all this madness started and who is the culprit that started this ego driven bombardment of bolting that others have seen as the go ahead to follow suit... I’m looking at sport climbs in the Grampians, it’s a pretty telling story Neil

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