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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
Author
Bolts at Buffalo

bigchris
10-Jan-2019
6:42:25 PM
OK so........

Before I say or mention anything, I'm reluctantly posting on here because I'm not entirely sure if anything is going to be gained from people arguing. I've spoken to M9 and to Claw in a string of emails, and they've both recommended that I type what's happened and what I've done.

So I was climbing with Geoff Gledhill up at Buffalo last week. Doing a whole heap of fun and burly stuff. I met up with this dude from California who wanted to try and climb Typhon so I showed him how to get to it as even though its 100 metres from the carpark, its easy to get lost.

The Californians and Geoff and I walked down to basically the entry point of Burstons Crevasse (kinda the intersection where you can turn left to go to Beowulf or scramble straight and go the the top of Angels Butress) only to find the walkway (the bit that you walk over the top of the dead tree) down to where you would look at Typhon, Caligula, Agrippa etc, sprayed with bolts and anchors.

I went back to the car and grabbed my hammer and spanner and started to remove them all and punch most of them in, however the person that has drilled them hasn't drilled the holes deep enough. They're still somewhat hanging out of the ground. Yes the ground, on a slab which you can walk down. Geoff and I pulled about 3 sets of anchors out, and 4 hangers.

Over at the Caligula top out, where I was showing the Californians how to climb through the hidden hole to get to the top of Typhon were also random bolts in walls. I pulled all of these out as well. They were not near any climbs and just in random spots kinda 5-6 meters back from the cliff.

I also pulled the bolts out of the slackfline anchors at the top of Country Road and across to Wicked Solitaire. All 10 of them (except for one which is f---ed up) and none of the holes were deep enough to punch them through. I'll take the grinder up in a few weeks and grind these off, or figure out how to get them out somehow. Geoff and I hit every thread at the base of each bolt with a hammer so that they can't be reused. Geoff was fuming by this stage. I also installed a rap anchor at the top of Country Road about 8 months ago as the trees are starting to disappear making it a little sketchy for Tim Lockwood and I to get down there. They are hidden right over the edge where no-one can see them unless you are rappelling down. Rod and Claw have no issues with these and a multitude of people have used them.

We climbed also at the Horn only to find that some gum nut has basically grid bolted Profanities (17) with bolts right next to perfect gear placements. Geoff and I will possibly chop some of these off. I think there is 10 or 11 in total, when it needs 4-5 at the very most.

The next day on the way to Angels, he ended up walking back out with my Canadian friend Mike, and they saw about 15 bolts on a flat piece of rock which you could walk on with your hands in your pockets and they pulled every one of those out too. If you are friends with Geoff on Facebook, you'll be able to see that Mike has tagged him in a Video where they are about to remove them all.

Is it the Army? Is it a guide? Is it a Uni Club? I don't know. We walked away with pockets of brand new hardware and were kinda bummed out about it. I don't mind people putting in an anchor to save a death march or a dodgy descent, or where there is no natural gear to make an anchor, but I don't know what is happening here.

In speaking with M9 and Claw, we've decided it best to leave the Slackline anchors that go across Crystal Brook as they're no near any climbs and have been responsibly installed and I think we have to share. I guess after I was accused of over-bolting a route earlier in 2017 (4 bolts over 25 metres), I'm trying to do what's best for the future Buffalo users.

I think that people should stay away if they're not ready to get rowdy in the wide and run out on the slabs.

Let me know your thoughts.

Duang Daunk
10-Jan-2019
9:24:17 PM
On 10-Jan-2019 bigchris wrote:
>OK so........
>
>Before I say or mention anything, I'm reluctantly posting on here because
>I'm not entirely sure if anything is going to be gained from people arguing.
>I've spoken to M9 and to Claw in a string of emails, and they've both recommended
>that I type what's happened and what I've done.
>
>So I was climbing with Geoff Gledhill up at Buffalo last week. Doing a
>whole heap of fun and burly stuff. I met up with this dude from California
>who wanted to try and climb Typhon so I showed him how to get to it as
>even though its 100 metres from the carpark, its easy to get lost.
>
>The Californians and Geoff and I walked down to basically the entry point
>of Burstons Crevasse (kinda the intersection where you can turn left to
>go to Beowulf or scramble straight and go the the top of Angels Butress)
>only to find the walkway (the bit that you walk over the top of the dead
>tree) down to where you would look at Typhon, Caligula, Agrippa etc, sprayed
>with bolts and anchors.
>
>I went back to the car and grabbed my hammer and spanner and started to
>remove them all and punch most of them in, however the person that has
>drilled them hasn't drilled the holes deep enough. They're still somewhat
>hanging out of the ground. Yes the ground, on a slab which you can walk
>down. Geoff and I pulled about 3 sets of anchors out, and 4 hangers.
>
>Over at the Caligula top out, where I was showing the Californians how
>to climb through the hidden hole to get to the top of Typhon were also
>random bolts in walls. I pulled all of these out as well. They were not
>near any climbs and just in random spots kinda 5-6 meters back from the
>cliff.
>
>I also pulled the bolts out of the slackfline anchors at the top of Country
>Road and across to Wicked Solitaire. All 10 of them (except for one which
>is f---ed up) and none of the holes were deep enough to punch them through.
>I'll take the grinder up in a few weeks and grind these off, or figure
>out how to get them out somehow. Geoff and I hit every thread at the base
>of each bolt with a hammer so that they can't be reused. Geoff was fuming
>by this stage. I also installed a rap anchor at the top of Country Road
>about 8 months ago as the trees are starting to disappear making it a little
>sketchy of Tim Lockwood and I to get down there. They are hidden right
>over the edge where no-one can see them unless you are rappelling down.
>Rod and Claw have no issues with these and a multitude of people have used
>them.
>
>We climbed also at the Horn only to find that some gum nut has basically
>grid bolted Profanities (17) with bolts right next to perfect gear placements.
>Geoff and I will possibly chop some of these off. I think there is 10 or
>11 in total, when it needs 4-5 at the very most.
>
>The next day on the way to Angels, he ended up walking back out with my
>Canadian friend Mike, and they saw about 15 bolts on a flat piece of rock
>which you could walk on with your hands in your pockets and they pulled
>every one of those out too. If you are friends with Geoff on Facebook,
>you'll be able to see that Mike has tagged him in a Video where they are
>about to remove them all.
>
>Is it the Army? Is it a guide? Is it a Uni Club? I don't know. We walked
>away with pockets of brand new hardware and were kinda bummed out about
>it. I don't mind people putting in an anchor to save a death march or a
>dodgy descent, or where there is no natural gear to make an anchor, but
>I don't know what is happening here.
>
>In speaking with M9 and Claw, we've decided it best to leave the Slackline
>anchors that go across Crystal Brook as they're no near any climbs and
>have been responsibly installed and I think we have to share. I guess after
>I was accused of over-bolting a route earlier in 2017 (4 bolts over 25
>metres), I'm trying to do what's best for the future Buffalo users.
>
>I think that people should stay away if they're not ready to get rowdy
>in the wide and run out on the slabs.
>
>Let me know your thoughts.

Defies belief.
This kind of indiscriminate bolting has huge negative potential, and we can now add another top shelf climbing area to the potentially endangered climbing access list.
Well done for removing what you could bro.
marky
10-Jan-2019
9:43:20 PM
Well done guys!

Unfortunately, it seems with this rapid increase in new climbers to the scene that these outrageous bolting actions are starting to become all too frequent and way out of control. Very concerning.

Best we can do is keep spreading the message that itís not ok and will not be tolerated. That those responsible should be made known to the climbing community and the bolts chopped/removed and patched. Wether this is by those individuals who installed them or by others in the community.
Bolting is expensive on time and money so they will hopefully get the message.



E. Wells
11-Jan-2019
5:34:16 AM
There was a guy from Adventure Guides (car parked on side of road on Thurs. 10th) sussing out the boulders on the left just after the intersection as you approach the gorge. For all I know this could be you , but what you are describing sounds like commercial absqueeling. There seems to be an abundance of anchor options in the area?

E. Wells
11-Jan-2019
5:53:12 AM
Adventure Australia. Based in Bright. Photos on homepage

Someone should keep an eye on the rocks I have mentioned as they are an explorers wonderland......or a convenient cashcow.
anthonycuskelly
11-Jan-2019
5:55:51 AM
Thanks Chris & co. for removing those.

If you don't want to lead it as it stands, either toprope it or find someone who'll lead it for you (I've done both). And if you don't know how to set an anchor without bolts, then learn.
kieranl
11-Jan-2019
6:40:31 AM
Quite awful. Were they all trubolts, Chris?

ajfclark
11-Jan-2019
7:13:52 AM
Andrew Davis from Wodonga Tafe has also previous been involved in bolting inappropriately at Buffalo. http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=15&MessageID=23758&Replies=1

I think the bolts on Profanities date from then (2013).

bigchris
11-Jan-2019
8:08:14 AM
On 11-Jan-2019 kieranl wrote:
>Quite awful. Were they all trubolts, Chris?

I'm not sure what a true bolt is - But they were a mixture of normal bolts with locking collars, and bolts which are surrounded by a long sleeve.

bigchris
11-Jan-2019
8:09:34 AM
On 11-Jan-2019 ajfclark wrote:
>Andrew Davis from Wodonga Tafe has also previous been involved in bolting
>inappropriately at Buffalo. http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&Forum
>D=15&MessageID=23758&Replies=1
>
>I think the bolts on Profanities date from then (2013).

I'll go back with Geoff in Feb and chop a few of them off. Probably the first 2 bolts, the 4th, the 6th and the ones next to the cracks. Having the rap at the top was handy and we enjoyed coming straight down afterwards. It should also be noted that none of the bolts were rounded off so fitting plates over them was not a fun time. You'd hate to be gripped and standing on crystals at the bottom and trying to slam it on there.
kieranl
11-Jan-2019
9:05:49 AM
On 11-Jan-2019 bigchris wrote:
>On 11-Jan-2019 kieranl wrote:
>>Quite awful. Were they all trubolts, Chris?
>
>I'm not sure what a true bolt is - But they were a mixture of normal bolts
>with locking collars, and bolts which are surrounded by a long sleeve.

trubolts are the ones with the collars. Very difficult to remove so chopping is usually the option. I think trubolt is actually a brand name but it's the name commonly applied to that style of bolt, including the Fixe wedge bolts.
One Day Hero
11-Jan-2019
11:44:34 AM
Chris, the ones with a full length sleeve are generally referred to as dynabolts, the ones with the short sleeve down at the end are referred to as trubolts (as in "true 10mm bolt in 10mm hole").

Dynabolts are easy to get out. Remove nut and hanger, grab the bit of protruding sleeve with thin-nose vice-grips, gently tap shaft to disengage cone, pull sleeve then shaft out.

Trubolts are a bit more complicated and require a drill and a couple of custom tools. You can get them in about 15 mins once everything is dialed in. There are a bunch of excellent american youtube tutorials up.

If you are going to grind off and tap them in, grind first then tap........obvious as soon as you think about it.

Thanks for cleaning up.

bigchris
11-Jan-2019
12:16:21 PM
On 11-Jan-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>Chris, the ones with a full length sleeve are generally referred to as
>dynabolts, the ones with the short sleeve down at the end are referred
>to as trubolts (as in "true 10mm bolt in 10mm hole").
>
>Dynabolts are easy to get out. Remove nut and hanger, grab the bit of
>protruding sleeve with thin-nose vice-grips, gently tap shaft to disengage
>cone, pull sleeve then shaft out.
>
>Trubolts are a bit more complicated and require a drill and a couple of
>custom tools. You can get them in about 15 mins once everything is dialed
>in. There are a bunch of excellent american youtube tutorials up.
>
>If you are going to grind off and tap them in, grind first then tap........obvious
>as soon as you think about it.
>
>Thanks for cleaning up.

Yeah no probs. I'm basically a giant hack crack climber so I'm figuring all of this shit out as I go. The good thing is, apart from Profanities, is that none of them are on actual climbs so im not too stressed about making a mess and they're all in weird spot that no one would notice.
Jayford4321
11-Jan-2019
1:02:05 PM
On 11-Jan-2019 bigchris wrote:
One Day Hero wrote:
>>Thanks for cleaning up.

>Yeah no probs. I'm basically a giant hack crack climber so I'm figuring
>all of this shit out as I go. The good thing is, apart from Profanities,
>is that none of them are on actual climbs so im not too stressed about
>making a mess and they're all in weird spot that no one would notice.

Yeh, thx for cleaning up, and for letting us know whatís going down at Buff.

>Profanities
If you read the otha shred linked by clarky, you will find buried in it various posts from various peeps who repeated Profanities after the retro, and consensus responses generally felt it is overbolted, but chopping would bugger itís new half reasonable flow unless some remaining bolts maybe repositioned.
You seem to have already made up your mind which ones to chop, but since you going back with original ascent GG, an you state your figuring it as you go, then be guided by GG as to what gets chopped and what remains.
Maybe lead it first to confirm the thinking.

An maybe file some corners off the hexheads that remain, to make them hanger friendly.

gordoste
11-Jan-2019
6:22:17 PM
Great job cleaning up the mess. I will post on some local FB groups to see if anybody knows anything.

Personally we did Profanities and really enjoyed it. It could have gotten by with fewer bolts, but there are worse examples around (check out the Mothballs). I don't think it justifies chopping. We had only minor problems getting hangers on - some brands of hanger are tighter than others. This is an issue with various climbs and is one of the reasons why carrots are better in theory than in practice. I know I've had heaps of problems with 90 degree hangers - I don't use them unless I run out of 45's. I mostly have the PFH ones.
Adventureguide
11-Jan-2019
7:54:22 PM
Just a comment - None of the bolts cut were placed by Adventure Guides Australia - the last bolts our company placed were put in at the top of the Catani Slabs climbs in 2004 to allow safe top rope climbing when the anchor trees were burned out by the 2003 Bushfires. These were put in by John Schwerdfeger who was then climbing with Bob Cowan.
Adventureguide
11-Jan-2019
8:02:56 PM
There are natural anchors available at most abseil and climb locations at Mount Buffalo and in 36 years of operation my company has only placed bolts in two locations - Echo Point (at the request of Parks Victoria) and the top rope system at the Catani Slabs in 2004 after the Anchor trees were burned out in the 2003 fires.
rb
12-Jan-2019
3:46:25 AM
I'm part owner of Bright Adventure Company, one of the two main commercial operators on Buffalo. None of the bolts placed are anything to do with us.

I think it's important to say that if you don't know how to remove bolts correctly, don't do it. Trubolts can be cut off, the stud punched in, then glued over with rock dust. On textured granite they will be almost invisible after that. Hitting them with a hammer because you lack the knowledge of how to do a proper job just makes it harder.

Duang Daunk
12-Jan-2019
5:56:40 AM
On 11-Jan-2019 Adventureguide wrote:
>There are natural anchors available at most abseil and climb locations
>at Mount Buffalo and in 36 years of operation my company has only placed
>bolts in two locations - Echo Point (at the request of Parks Victoria)
>and the top rope system at the Catani Slabs in 2004 after the Anchor trees
>were burned out in the 2003 fires.

Only two locations eh bro...
Youíre forgetting about the north wall, yeh?
I heard thereís a big 200 m abseil over there, know what I mean? Yeh?
Itís got bolts on Fuhrer Ledge to get all the way down yeh? Maybe some at the top too??

PAT
12-Jan-2019
10:35:37 AM
Good work Chris. Glad to see you've gone on to good things in climbing.

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