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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
CliffCare Survey-Please help out
Access T CliffCare
3-Jan-2019
7:54:17 AM
Calling all climbers. Want to help out? Take a small amount of time and complete the survey. This will help us with our current work on Grampians access as well as other Victorian climbing access work.

https://goo.gl/forms/KLHJNzUQARNqM2b82

CliffCare has released a survey to the climbing community aimed to establish a profile of Victorian climbers and their attitudes toward the cliff environment including conservation of the physical environment as well as Indigenous cultural heritage.

Survey.
johnpitcairn
3-Jan-2019
12:43:31 PM
Done. Pleased you have allowed responses from non-AU folk.
One Day Hero
3-Jan-2019
7:13:29 PM
I filled the survey out, but feel obliged to offer a critique.

Many of the questions seem to be phrased as false choices (or at least limited choice from a potentially broad range of valid opinions).

For example, a couple of the questions regarding aboriginal sites and climbing are phrased more or less as "are you a racist fuchstick who wants to shit all over significant sites, or are you a good person who is cool with us permanently banning climbing at any crag which shows the slightest sign of being visited by the traditional owners?"

I don't think that anywhere on the agree-disagree spectrum properly captures my sentiment that the very way the question is being phrased is simplistic and seems designed to force the desired answer.

Also, the land managers, VCC, and the climbing scene in general need to address the issue of oranges and apples. Muline and Eureka have nothing to do with Joe Goding's piece of shit crags, or Weir's Creek, or Sentinel fuching Rock. I understand that many of the climbers who will engage in negotiations are god-awful career bumblies, but you have to understand that the vast majority of worthwhile climbing in the Victoria Range is hard and most of the easy stuff is garbage. That's not me being "gradist", it's just geology working against low grade climbers so tough shit. The roles are reversed at Arapiles, where most of the good climbing leans towards the easier end of the spectrum.

The point of the previous paragraph is that if anyone goes into negotiations with the idea of giving up Muline so that we get to keep access to Mt. Knobrider or Arsecrack Crag or some other useless bumbly shit and that this result is "equitable" or "the best overall result for the whole of the climbing community", then they are a traitor.

Differentiate between world class crags, good local crags, and pieces of disposable shit, and negotiate accordingly. If the people talking to land managers can't tell the difference, they are the wrong people to be talking to land managers.

phil_nev
4-Jan-2019
5:44:28 AM
On 3-Jan-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>I filled the survey out, but feel obliged to offer a critique.
>
>Many of the questions seem to be phrased as false choices (or at least
>limited choice from a potentially broad range of valid opinions).
>
>For example, a couple of the questions regarding aboriginal sites and
>climbing are phrased more or less as "are you a racist fuchstick who wants
>to shit all over significant sites, or are you a good person who is cool
>with us permanently banning climbing at any crag which shows the slightest
>sign of being visited by the traditional owners?"
>
>I don't think that anywhere on the agree-disagree spectrum properly captures
>my sentiment that the very way the question is being phrased is simplistic
>and seems designed to force the desired answer.
>
>Also, the land managers, VCC, and the climbing scene in general need to
>address the issue of oranges and apples. Muline and Eureka have nothing
>to do with Joe Goding's piece of shit crags, or Weir's Creek, or Sentinel
>fuching Rock. I understand that many of the climbers who will engage in
>negotiations are god-awful career bumblies, but you have to understand
>that the vast majority of worthwhile climbing in the Victoria Range is
>hard and most of the easy stuff is garbage. That's not me being "gradist",
>it's just geology working against low grade climbers so tough shit. The
>roles are reversed at Arapiles, where most of the good climbing leans towards
>the easier end of the spectrum.
>
>The point of the previous paragraph is that if anyone goes into negotiations
>with the idea of giving up Muline so that we get to keep access to Mt.
>Knobrider or Arsecrack Crag or some other useless bumbly shit and that
>this result is "equitable" or "the best overall result for the whole of
>the climbing community", then they are a traitor.
>
>Differentiate between world class crags, good local crags, and pieces
>of disposable shit, and negotiate accordingly. If the people talking to
>land managers can't tell the difference, they are the wrong people to be
>talking to land managers.

I can't believe I'm saying this... But I agree 100% with all of the above! First time for everything ODH. The phrasing of the questions had me stumped also. Of course I give a sh$t about preserving cultural heritage and the environment we love... But A blanket ban of an entire region isn't the answer.
Kp
4-Jan-2019
10:12:12 AM
Spot on ODH.
kieranl
4-Jan-2019
10:48:21 AM
On 4-Jan-2019 phil_nev wrote:
>
>I can't believe I'm saying this... But I agree 100% with all of the above!
> First time for everything ODH. The phrasing of the questions had me stumped
>also. Of course I give a sh$t about preserving cultural heritage and the
>environment we love... But A blanket ban of an entire region isn't the
>answer.

On 4-Jan-2019 Kp wrote:
>Spot on ODH.

I can't believe that I'm reading this. What do you actually agree with?

>Many of the questions seem to be phrased as false choices (or at least
>limited choice from a potentially broad range of valid opinions).

Fair enough. I struggled with this.

>I understand that many of the climbers who will engage in
>negotiations are god-awful career bumblies,

Do you agree with this? If so why? Just looks like a pre-emptive ad-hominem attack. Its always good to denigrate the people you want to demonise.

>they are a traitor.

Do you think any climber involved in a negotiation that doesn't have an outcome you like is a "traitor"?

Are you sure that you agree with everything ODH said?

I think he made a good point about the questionnaire and then went off on one of his rants which, par for the course, included some nasty stuff.

His post overall should be condemned, not endorsed.



Kp
4-Jan-2019
12:39:37 PM
The survey is simplistic Kieran and forces answers which are loaded. The rest of damos rant (while a bit colorful) makes a valid point.

Cheers.
rightarmbad
4-Jan-2019
1:33:14 PM
Agree, several questions were realistically not answerable with the options given and ask you to call all climbers by the same brush.
Stugang
4-Jan-2019
2:05:40 PM
K I think you should reread the post without anti hero goggles on.

As far as I can see the outcome of the negotiations are not finalised so he is not disagreeing with the outcome as there ain’t one yet. Unless you know something we don’t and the questionnaire has been constructed to justify support for a predetermined outcome - my cynical self doesn’t want to but half believes this.

Given the above it is perfectly valid to ask about the credentials and perspective of those taking part in the negotiations. Because if their world view has an equivalence between a shit crag that should never have been bolted and muline then they should move aside cos then they aren’t bringing anything but a count of activity on thecrag.com to the negotiations.
Jayford4321
4-Jan-2019
2:35:32 PM
Did the survey and to answer the shit (some) questions chose the middle of the road answering of neither agree nor disagree because they were forcing me into a box that didn’t fit.

Kman, you normally da man, but odius just took your mantle.
kieranl
4-Jan-2019
4:31:42 PM
Stu, first, I'm not involved in negotiations but would be astonished if anything had been determined at this stage.

I did read ODHs stuff pretty carefully.

Essentially he's putting up a strawman scenario that neotiations are going to be on a transactional basis, that one area will be traded off against another : I'll give you this if you give me that. The scenario of trading Muline for some minor crag is complete rubbish of course.

How are we going to deal with a major climbing site that has significant cultural heritage issues? They certainly exist and if it comes to a binary choice between cultural heritage and a first-world sport then I know which will win.

As to what anyone's climbing ability has to do with their negotiating skills? It's just elitism. Makes me sick.

There are going to be some difficult issues to deal with before this is through and name-calling doesn't help.


One Day Hero
4-Jan-2019
7:05:27 PM
I apologise for last nights comments, they were probably unclear as I'd had half a bottle of wine. Tonight I've had the other half a bottle and will attempt to straighten things out.

>I did read ODHs stuff pretty carefully.
>
>Essentially he's putting up a strawman scenario that neotiations are going
>to be on a transactional basis, that one area will be traded off against
>another : I'll give you this if you give me that. The scenario of trading
>Muline for some minor crag is complete rubbish of course.

No, that wasn't what I was trying to get at. The point I was trying to make was how can someone be trusted to negotiate access to crags if they have never climbed at those crags and don't know their value? Is there any formal acknowledgement within the VCC that not all crags are of equal worth to the climbing community? If a world class crag also has cultural heritage issues, then the job is to find a way to protect the site while maintaining climbing access.
>
>How are we going to deal with a major climbing site that has significant
>cultural heritage issues? They certainly exist and if it comes to a binary
>choice between cultural heritage and a first-world sport then I know which
>will win.

I don't know, Kieran, it's very complicated. There are significant cultural heritage issues at Arapiles. Should we give up climbing at all of fuching Arapiles because "cultural heritage trumps first-world sport every time"?

>
>As to what anyone's climbing ability has to do with their negotiating
>skills? It's just elitism. Makes me sick.

It's hard fuching facts which need to be faced. I don't trust bumblies to understand which crags in the Vic Range are world class and which aren't, because unless you climb in the mid 20s up, you've never climbed a world class route in the Vic Ranges.

>There are going to be some difficult issues to deal with before this is
>through and name-calling doesn't help.

Damn right there will be. If the VCC expect to conduct negotiations on behalf of all climbers, they need to establish some credibility. Frankly I think there needs to be a closed door meeting where the VCC lays out exactly what their objectives and priorities are here (and maybe let non-club people in on how screwed we are at this point). I'll happily drive down to hear about it.

I'm mostly on your side of the fence here. We don't want or need people scouring the Gramps for mediocre routes which add very little value. But you need to recognise that some of those Vic Ranges hard crags are globally unique and anything other than full effort to maintain access to them is a massive sell out of climbers best interests.




salty crag
4-Jan-2019
7:26:57 PM
Done.
One Day Hero
4-Jan-2019
7:33:54 PM
On 4-Jan-2019 kieranl wrote:
>Do you think any climber involved in a negotiation that doesn't have an
>outcome you like is a "traitor"?

No, I think a climber who has never climbed at Muline (and will never be able to climb at Muline because they aren't good enough) and is entrusted to negotiate on behalf of the entire climbing community, and lets Muline go without a fight because they have no ability to comprehend that Muline is, in the words of the always eloquent Hooters "the best stone on planet Earth for climbing on"......at best this is the wrong person for the job!
stugang
4-Jan-2019
9:09:14 PM
>Stu, first, I'm not involved in negotiations but would be astonished if anything had been determined at this stage.

didn’t think you were.

>I did read ODHs stuff pretty carefully.

I’ll take your word for it

>Essentially he's putting up a strawman scenario that neotiations are going to be on a transactional basis, that one area will be traded off against another : I'll give you this if you give me that. The scenario of trading Muline for some minor crag is complete rubbish of course.

I don’t agree that that is what he said and is certainly is not what I am saying. I read it as the negotiation thing is complex with little black or white (apart from obvious transgressions) so if the “climbing community” was going to have a representative then that person or people should have an appreciation of “relative climbing importance” just as the other side has to have a view of “relative cultural significance”. Thats how negotiation works.

>How are we going to deal with a major climbing site that has significant cultural heritage issues? They certainly exist and if it comes to a binary choice between cultural heritage and a first-world sport then I know which will win.

see comments above. You are making a hypothetical conclusion to a non-existent situation….yet..

>As to what anyone's climbing ability has to do with their negotiating skills? It's just elitism. Makes me sick.

no one has said that. Good on you for protecting your mates but I think the point being made is that the role of the negotiator is an important one and requires a breadth of experience and perspective.

>There are going to be some difficult issues to deal with before this is through and name-calling doesn't help.

You can put every0ne at ease by saying that your mates do have this experience and perspective.
kieranl
6-Jan-2019
10:50:00 AM
On 4-Jan-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>I apologise for last nights comments, they were probably unclear as I'd
>had half a bottle of wine. Tonight I've had the other half a bottle and
>will attempt to straighten things out.
>
>>I did read ODHs stuff pretty carefully.
>>
>>Essentially he's putting up a strawman scenario that neotiations are
>going
>>to be on a transactional basis, that one area will be traded off against
>>another : I'll give you this if you give me that. The scenario of trading
>>Muline for some minor crag is complete rubbish of course.
>
>No, that wasn't what I was trying to get at. The point I was trying to
>make was how can someone be trusted to negotiate access to crags if they
>have never climbed at those crags and don't know their value? Is there
>any formal acknowledgement within the VCC that not all crags are of equal
>worth to the climbing community? If a world class crag also has cultural
>heritage issues, then the job is to find a way to protect the site while
>maintaining climbing access.
>>

That's a view that I can appreciate even though I think it is invalid. There's not a lot of point going around in further circles about it because we will continue to disagree.

But, fortunately your initial assumption that everything is in the hands of "career bumblies" isn't right. I didn't want to verbal anyone by mis-remembering something so spent some time going through my emails (the gmail search is pretty damn useless).

Here's an excerpt from an email from Cliffcare on 9/11/2018 :

"We were currently in the process of organizing a couple of working groups. For one
of these, developer reps will be an integral part of moving forward and hearing
feedback from all efficiently. Adam Demmert has agreed to be the rep for climbing
developers and Simon Weill for bouldering developers. How they choose to set up
their system to work with you all will be up to them should it be a combined one or
separate or maybe both."

So, there are things in progress, even if all seems to be moving slowly. I guess the survey, whatever its flaws, is just part of the initial phase.
Access T CliffCare
21-Jan-2019
9:12:10 AM
Another prompt for this. If you haven't already filled it out, please take the time to do so. More feedback the better.

With regards to some of the comments on this thread, I will give a general response to some of the concerns and critiques soon. What I will say, is that this process with Grampians access is going to take some time. Not just because we are dealing with a number of parties, government included, but Access Fund we ain't. We don't have full time staff putting together communication memos for every step of the way. So as previously noted - things might seem like they are moving slowly but things are in progress.
Access T CliffCare
8-Feb-2019
5:03:51 PM
And another prompt for this.

We will be closing the survey on 15th February. Thanks to all who have responded to the request to complete the survey. If you haven't already, please take the 10 minutes (or more if you want to provide some thoughts at the end). Whilst there have been critiques of the survey - as there has been with most of the processes we have been engaging in - we are getting great feedback on the survey. It may not ask all the questions you want to give answers to, nor is is as specific as some people would want. If we created the survey that 'ticked' everyone's boxes it would be so long that people would lose interest half way through. We have someone who works on surveys doing it, and whilst taking on your criticisms, we still think the survey as it stands is a good start to gather a monumental amount of information that isn't out there from a diverse and fragmented community. This survey allows us to ascertain the areas of interest that require a more specific focus in another survey.

I have to also add, that the climbing community over time has been asked both publicly and privately to provide feedback and thoughts on many of the issues in the Grampians...either privately or publicly. Some have but nowhere near enough to be really helpful and some of the loudest now were some of the quietest previously. If those who think the the survey is crap and severely lacking want to say more, drop me a line. Please. The feedback I like the most on the survey are the comments that people have taken the time to add. We are still a small enough community to be able to read all of that and take it on.

As far as understanding what is important out there in terms of cliffs and their importance, knowledge and negotiating skills - of course this is an understandable concern. This process was never going to be about a couple of people who were going to 'fix' things up. This is a community issue. The process was always about getting people involved who had the right skill sets and represented certain sections of the climbing community, and this has been happening from before the 'proverbial hit the fan' publicly. There have been many issues over the 11 years I have been in the job and have engaged with land manangers at cliffs such as Taipan, Gallery, Bundaleer, Rosea, Ravine to name just a few. I can assure you that the people that have had to deal with the beginnings of the road we are on are well aware of what makes the climbing in the Grampians world class.

Some of those on the working group who will be directly involved with negotiations can be seen here -

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=133742&Replies=0

I will have a full list of Grampians Access working group members up publicly soon. Along with those who will be helping out on the technical working group.

In the meantime, go ahead and tick some boxes. Write some comments. Or drop me a line cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au

Thanks.


JamesMc
10-Feb-2019
8:06:03 AM
Can I just reinforce the previous post?

Most of us these days are "surveyed out". I seem to get asked to fill one out every second day. And when I do, I usually can't be bothered going right to the end because they are too long.

THIS ONE IS IMPORTANT. FILL IT OUT. ALL OF IT.

JamesMc
(Excuse the shouting. I want to keep climbing in The Grampians.)
Olbert
10-Feb-2019
12:57:35 PM
Agree with ODH.

This was my freeform comment:

The Grampians, and certain crags in the Grampians, are extremely important to climbers in Victoria, Australia and all over the world. There are world class bouldering and climbing crags which have extremely high value to climbers and by extension also have a high economic and tourism value. No climbers want to detrimentally impact on cultural sites of significance or the environment, however, it would be equally wrong for climbing to be banned because of potentially minor impacts. The best outcome is shared usage and minimising impacts without outright banning!

Additionally, it is important to realise that the Grampians crags have varying amounts of value to the climbing community. Only some of the crags are actually world class, some are national class and some are just 'local' crags. Any trade offs in negotiations must be focused on the world class crags with the national class crags second with local crags a distant third. All crags are not equal!

There are 20 messages in this topic.

 

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