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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 67
Author
Pioneers of Tassie's Best Climbs
Tastrad
13-Sep-2016
1:18:43 PM
This thread is partly in response to rowans comment about my first ascents.
He said
>"Well it's just taste I guess. But I found that your self appraisals of your first ascents was a state wide running joke when I was in Tassie. You have climbed some awesome routes first but not as many as your guide books claim. I was told on several occasions whilst at the crag to take two stars off any Gerry route in the guide. That was locals beta."

It made me wonder who these locals were, and then I got to thinking whether their opinion, or the opinion of interstate visitors like rowan and One Day Donkey Boy has any credibility, and is their assessment of a climb worth listening to.

I went through my Climb Tasmania guidebook, which has the best 850 routes at the 25 best crags and took note of the first ascensionists. I did this because it is mainly these people whose opinion I respect when it comes to judging a route's quality.
The first ascensionists have runs on the board, they have done some hard yards, scrubbed some climbs, done some exploring, invested in bolts, worked the routes and made an effort to develop the sport.

Knowing most of these people, I have found them less likely to be critical of a climb, because they know what effort goes into a first ascent. And if they are scathing of a route, I take notice because they usually have good reason to be, and they also know people are sitting in judgement of their climbs. I also respect others opinion to some degree because any climber can assess the quality of a climb, but the opinion of first ascensionists with runs on the board holds far greater credibility.

Before people claim that I am biased towards my own climbs (which I am a bit), this guidebook was a big collaborative effort by the Tasmanian climbing community, and the key players were asked to submit lists of the best routes and assign star ratings to the climbs. A big plus for the guidebook is that there has been very little criticism of the guide because everybody down here wanted the guide to succeed and many people were consulted on all aspects of the guide especially on which climbs made the selected best list. The Climb Tasmania guidebook is now generally accepted as the `go to' book documenting the best climbs in the state.
So who have been the main pioneers of the best routes in Tassie?

Of the 850 climbs selected by a panel of local climbers, 364 of them were put up by 4 people; myself, Nick Hanc--k, Bob McMahon and Garry Phillips. 42% of the classic routes in Tassie were pioneered by these 4 guys.
Now my old mate Bob has passed away, so that means Nick and Garry are the two guys whose opinion on Tassie climbing I respect the most. If they think my climb is donkey dick quality, then it probably is.

Expand the list to people who contributed over 20 classics, and you end up with only 6 more people and 539 climbs. 63% of the classic routes in Tassie were put up by 10 people, guys like Neale Smith, Sam Edwards, Simon Parsons, Dr John Fisher (not CJ), Norm Selby and Roger Parkyn. I listen to these men because they have done a huge amount of quality development.

Expand the list to people who did the first ascent of ten classics or more, and you end up with another 20 people: Bryan Kennedy, Ingvar Lidman, Andrew Martin, Doug Fife, Michael Fox, Lyle Closs, Ben Maddison, John Fantini, Mick Ling, Kim Carrigan, Danny Ng, Nic Deka, Doug McConnell, Pete Steane, Garn Cooper, Simon Young, Phil Bigg, Ian Lewis, Al Williams and the Jackson brothers. I have climbed or socialized with most of these people, and if they talk about route quality or climbing ethics, I will take note..their opinion has weighty credibility.

A few people deserve special mention because of a few singular amazing efforts: Jake Bresnehan and Kim Robinson for some very hard climbs, Adam Donoghue for his efforts in the Tyndalls, Steve Monks and Simon Mentz and John Ewbank for the Totem Pole, and Chris Dewhirst and Dave Neilson for pioneering climbs at Frenchmans.

So the locals that Rowan spoke to who said to take two stars off my climbs..if they are not some of the people I have listed above, then their opinion has little credibility in my opinion. Which probably leads into another potential thread..I hate the star rating system..it is too subjective and results in many excellent climbs of 1 or 2 star rating being neglected, because everybody only wants to climb 3 star routes (hint: want to climb 3 stars? Just look for G.Narkowicz FA in the guidebook)
Jayford4321
13-Sep-2016
1:46:14 PM
On 13/09/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>This thread is partly in response to rowans comment about my first ascents.
>
>He said
>>"Well it's just taste I guess. But I found that your self appraisals
>of your first ascents was a state wide running joke when I was in Tassie.
>You have climbed some awesome routes first but not as many as your guide
>books claim. I was told on several occasions whilst at the crag to take
>two stars off any Gerry route in the guide. That was locals beta."
>
>It made me wonder who these locals were, and then I got to thinking whether
>their opinion, or the opinion of interstate visitors like rowan and One
>Day Donkey Boy has any credibility, and is their assessment of a climb
>worth listening to.
>
>I went through my Climb Tasmania guidebook, which has the best 850 routes
>at the 25 best crags and took note of the first ascensionists. I did this
>because it is mainly these people whose opinion I respect when it comes
>to judging a route's quality.
>The first ascensionists have runs on the board, they have done some hard
>yards, scrubbed some climbs, done some exploring, invested in bolts, worked
>the routes and made an effort to develop the sport.
>
>Knowing most of these people, I have found them less likely to be critical
>of a climb, because they know what effort goes into a first ascent. And
>if they are scathing of a route, I take notice because they usually have
>good reason to be, and they also know people are sitting in judgement of
>their climbs. I also respect others opinion to some degree because any
>climber can assess the quality of a climb, but the opinion of first ascensionists
>with runs on the board holds far greater credibility.
>
> Before people claim that I am biased towards my own climbs (which I am
>a bit), this guidebook was a big collaborative effort by the Tasmanian
>climbing community, and the key players were asked to submit lists of the
>best routes and assign star ratings to the climbs. A big plus for the guidebook
>is that there has been very little criticism of the guide because everybody
>down here wanted the guide to succeed and many people were consulted on
>all aspects of the guide especially on which climbs made the selected best
>list. The Climb Tasmania guidebook is now generally accepted as the `go
>to' book documenting the best climbs in the state.
>So who have been the main pioneers of the best routes in Tassie?
>
>Of the 850 climbs selected by a panel of local climbers, 364 of them were
>put up by 4 people; myself, Nick Hanc--k, Bob McMahon and Garry Phillips.
>42% of the classic routes in Tassie were pioneered by these 4 guys.
>Now my old mate Bob has passed away, so that means Nick and Garry are
>the two guys whose opinion on Tassie climbing I respect the most. If they
>think my climb is donkey dick quality, then it probably is.
>
>Expand the list to people who contributed over 20 classics, and you end
>up with only 6 more people and 539 climbs. 63% of the classic routes in
>Tassie were put up by 10 people, guys like Neale Smith, Sam Edwards, Simon
>Parsons, Dr John Fisher (not CJ), Norm Selby and Roger Parkyn. I listen
>to these men because they have done a huge amount of quality development.
>
>Expand the list to people who did the first ascent of ten classics or
>more, and you end up with another 20 people: Bryan Kennedy, Ingvar Lidman,
>Andrew Martin, Doug Fife, Michael Fox, Lyle Closs, Ben Maddison, John Fantini,
>Mick Ling, Kim Carrigan, Danny Ng, Nic Deka, Doug McConnell, Pete Steane,
>Garn Cooper, Simon Young, Phil Bigg, Ian Lewis, Al Williams and the Jackson
>brothers. I have climbed or socialized with most of these people, and if
>they talk about route quality or climbing ethics, I will take note..their
>opinion has weighty credibility.
>
>A few people deserve special mention because of a few singular amazing
>efforts: Jake Bresnehan and Kim Robinson for some very hard climbs, Adam
>Donoghue for his efforts in the Tyndalls, Steve Monks and Simon Mentz and
>John Ewbank for the Totem Pole, and Chris Dewhirst and Dave Neilson for
>pioneering climbs at Frenchmans.
>
>So the locals that Rowan spoke to who said to take two stars off my climbs..if
>they are not some of the people I have listed above, then their opinion
>has little credibility in my opinion. Which probably leads into another
>potential thread..I hate the star rating system..it is too subjective and
>results in many excellent climbs of 1 or 2 star rating being neglected,
>because everybody only wants to climb 3 star routes (hint: want to climb
>3 stars? Just look for G.Narkowicz FA in the guidebook)
>

This iz gunnaB anutha 3 star shred 4sure!

So if i put up a heap of shit routes then i get good at assessing shit?
An can then tell the world itz not shit?
Nar. Even my friend ed would say i need a bigga yardstick than that.

Choky don't need anotha dogz at cragz shred whileva we have dogz with bones shreds 2 distract us here.
Tastrad
13-Sep-2016
1:59:12 PM
Are you saying that the people listed in the article have put up a heap of shit routes?
A respected panel of locals compiled the list for inclusion in the guide. Many of these guys have climbed all over the world and know what a quality climb is.

Even if you drastically cull my enthusiasm towards my own routes I still end up with a quite a few classics in the guidebook (judged by local climbers).

The people listed have not put up shit routes, as they have been judged by locals to be worthy of inclusion in a selected best climbing guide to Tassie.
Jayford4321
13-Sep-2016
2:06:39 PM
On 13/09/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>Are you saying that the people listed in the article have put up a heap
>of shit routes?
>A respected panel of locals compiled the list for inclusion in the guide.
>Many of these guys have climbed all over the world and know what a quality
>climb is.
>
>Even if you drastically cull my enthusiasm towards my own routes I still
>end up with a quite a few classics in the guidebook (judged by local climbers).
>
>
>The people listed have not put up shit routes, as they have been judged
>by locals to be worthy of inclusion in a selected best climbing guide to
>Tassie.

I assume Uve heard the phraze lies damn lies an statistics?

If i go to a lunatic asylum (otha than choky) an get concensus from tha inm8tz then i gotta B right, right?

Ay ed Ur pm box bonked (thanx pm). Might drop by Ur place later 2 discuss sum shit bout Ur numba of rootz at Raps an how He who rote tha Book counted them (or not), an thought about starz an stuff, if thatz ok withU.
(Wide, U can cum an watch ifU like).

Happy 2 get bak2U later geezu mm Gez, 1nce i hav my statz in orda
One Day Hero
13-Sep-2016
2:32:52 PM
Ooh, this one will be good.

Look Gez, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I actually really like your guide, most of your routes which I've done, and appreciate how much work went into both. However, Blackwood Rocks getting bolted, let alone being in the selected best of Tassie? Come on mate, that one was a bit of a slip up.

The thing which kicked this whole thing off (I mean after the bit where you discovered how to search in excel), is the preposterous idea that one new route equals one run on the board. Honestly, your ten or twenty best first ascents are probably worth more to the climbing community than three hundred of the "least classic" ones.

I've always been impressed by climbers who maintain a high percentage of quality in their new routes. If the potential is there, they develop. If not, they walk away and let the shit-vultures pick at whats left. How many crap routes have Giles, HB, Steve Monks, Crunch, and Fants put up between them?
tristosterone
13-Sep-2016
3:10:32 PM
I recon you have put up some routes that are an absolute waste of time G man. I also think you've put up some absolute A class routes - routes that stick out as some of the most memorable I have done. Your guide book, in my opinion, compares with the best guide books I have seen around the world. And lastly, I too feel that many of your routes get too many stars in your guidebook.

But hey, my opinion doesn't matter because I am a worthless bottom feeder.

Bob Saki
13-Sep-2016
4:35:55 PM
Narko-lepsy more like it. You lost me at "I" am "My"
Maybe this is all just tongue in cheek and a great "in joke", but seriously it appears you have done some good stuff and poor stuff. That is the summation of most peoples' careers. Just ask the well regarded consultant surgeon who left a metal object in my leg.
Either accept the errors and accompanying criticism or "de-bolt" it.
Jayford4321
13-Sep-2016
5:07:30 PM
>Narko-lepsy

Iz that a definition 4 name droppings?

Might try it now.
simey simey simey simes simey. simey simey simey
Do I hav any cred yet?
No?
Then thatz sad cos he's tha mostest bestest that i know an has conkad kerchoo at Raps, as well as writing tha Book.

The good Dr
13-Sep-2016
5:58:01 PM
On 13/09/2016 Tastrad wrote:

>So the locals that Rowan spoke to who said to take two stars off my climbs..if
>they are not some of the people I have listed above, then their opinion
>has little credibility in my opinion.

A number of the people you have mentioned have actually said to take a star or two off many of your routes. Who's credibility does that affect?

ChuckNorris
13-Sep-2016
6:36:41 PM
On 13/09/2016 The good Dr wrote:

>A number of the people you have mentioned have actually said to take a
>star or two off many of your routes. Who's credibility does that affect?


So does that mean those ones are only 1 or 2 stars?

rodw
13-Sep-2016
7:45:16 PM
Personally I reckon the whole star thing is a bit BS anyway..let peeps make up own decisions..everyone has a different opinion anyway. Though i do reckon a FAer giving there own routes stars (or close mates of them) is like have ya dad/uncle judging ya gymnastic routine at the Olympics...natural bias me thinks.

I understand the reason guide book authors throw in a star system etc...it is a guide after all..but really what is the worth of a system that is so prone to personal opinions...

I mean how many time you been sitting around a fire and such and such told you to go do an awesome route the next day and you do and in your opinion its total pox...was the original person wrong...or do they simply just have a different opinion as to what is fun than you do?

And when it comes down to it who cares..its just climbing and a stupid made up sport anyway with stupid rules/ideals that no one can agrees om..which is lucky as then chocky wouldn't have any content.
widewetandslippery
13-Sep-2016
8:38:02 PM
Imagine Arthur, Dick and I judging your gymnastics routine
One Day Hero
13-Sep-2016
8:41:26 PM
On 13/09/2016 tristosterone wrote:
>But hey, my opinion doesn't matter because I am a worthless bottom feeder.

Yeah, that bit bugged me too. There are so many frigging routes to climb now, what does it matter if most climbers decide not to add more? Trackwork, replacing old bolts, gardening and brushing existing routes, writing articles, teaching young climbers......they all contribute to the sport just as much as the great heroic act of rap bolting. And no one seems to feel the need to wank on about how awesome they are for doing trackwork.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13-Sep-2016
9:01:30 PM
On 13/09/2016 rodw wrote:
>how many time you been sitting around a fire and such and such
>told you to go do an awesome route the next day and you do and in your
>opinion its total pox...was the original person wrong...or do they simply
>just have a different opinion as to what is fun than you do?
>
~> An old sandbag routine.

>And when it comes down to it who cares..its just climbing and a stupid
>made up sport anyway with stupid rules/ideals that no one can agrees om..which
>is lucky as then chocky wouldn't have any content.

... or sandbags happening here on Chockstone too!
;-)



Post edit:
Links to the threads that led to this one...

Towards 1000 New Routes

New Worthless Donkey Dick Climbs



rodw
13-Sep-2016
9:06:10 PM
On 13/09/2016 widewetandslippery wrote:
>Imagine Arthur, Dick and I judging your gymnastics routine

Imagine me doing such a routine..it wouldn't be pretty..I cant even touch my toes.
Jayford4321
14-Sep-2016
12:13:48 PM
>So the locals that Rowan spoke to who said to take two stars off my climbs..if they are not some of the people I have listed above, then their opinion has little credibility in my opinion. Which probably leads into another potential thread..I hate the star rating system..it is too subjective and results in many excellent climbs of 1 or 2 star rating being neglected, because everybody only wants to climb 3 star routes (hint: want to climb 3 stars? Just look for G.Narkowicz FA in the guidebook)

Gez, afta comparing notes with ed i reckon ive got U sorted.
All Uneed 2do is stop believin Ur own propaganda (like simes does bout eds climbz in his Book), an adopt the Onsight patented 5 star system thatz so well loved in the Bluies!
That way after everyone takes 2 stars off as they doin now they'll B happy, an U2 will B happy, Bcos Ull still have 3 star routes left.
technogeekery
14-Sep-2016
1:36:09 PM
Star ratings are more useful when they are contributed by people who have done the climb - e.g. online ratings such as TheCrag - especially when combined with comments.

I love guidebooks for planning or simply daydreaming about new climbing areas - but get a lot more specific info from good online resources, which I think are the real future of guidebooks.
One Day Hero
14-Sep-2016
4:13:14 PM
On 14/09/2016 technogeekery wrote:
>Star ratings are more useful when they are contributed by people who have
>done the climb - e.g. online ratings such as TheCrag

TheCrag is a total joke for star ratings. Anything convenient and overgraded gets stars from the lowest common denominator crowd. Most newish routes are overstarred because the only people contributing are the f.a. and their mates.

rodw
14-Sep-2016
4:48:19 PM
Comes down to the point of what the star system is for though...its really a Guide book invention meant to point to climbs most people think are the best in the local area..if thats convenient & over graded so be it...just because you think they don't deserve a star doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than someone elses? If you think its shite but 20 others think it good..whos right?

main issue with thecrag is it gives stars to easily...you put climbs in with no rating, one person climbs it and gives good rating suddenly one star appears next to the climb...needs more of a sample i think ,ie at least 20 before any stars are allocated.

ChuckNorris
14-Sep-2016
5:38:10 PM
There are two purposes of the four components of a route (I.e. naming a route, grading a route, starring a route and describing a route).

Firstly to provide sufficient information for someone to make an informed decision on death and to have a good day at the crag.

Secondly to annoy the hell out of people that take themselves too seriously.

Contrary to popular belief the two objectives are not mutually exclusive, and they can be achieved across all four components on a single route (though this happens rarely).

All in all Gerry seems to have done a pretty good job on both objectives. Kudos.

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There are 67 messages in this topic.

 

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