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belaying seconds on a multipitch |
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10-Apr-2016 10:18:40 PM
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Hi all, what is the preferred option when belaying 2nds on a multipitch? Belaying off your harness, attached to an anchor or belaying from an anchor. Excuse me for not wording this perfectly.
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11-Apr-2016 7:49:23 AM
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When I am belaying seconds who won't be leading, I build a multipoint anchor with a cord.
When swinging leads, I usually use the rope and belay on the harness to reduce things taken on the climb.
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11-Apr-2016 8:37:27 AM
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If you have a grigri or reverso/guide device, you can belay off the anchor (LH shot). Otherwise with an ATC belay off harness and redirect rope through a high runner (this gives a lot of extra friction).
It's easy to drop a second with an ATC (RH picture below), so please belay off harness and redirect the rope to the second through a high runner on the belay. This puts the ATC in the same position as it would be when belaying a leader (LH picture below), and maximises friction.
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11-Apr-2016 8:39:39 AM
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On 11/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>It's easy to drop a second with an ATC, so please belay off harness and
>redirect the rope to the second through a high runner on the belay. This
>puts the ATC in the same position as it would be when belaying a leader,
>and maximises friction.
Is there an easy way to escape the belay when it's redirected?
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11-Apr-2016 9:04:41 AM
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On 11/04/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>On 11/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>>It's easy to drop a second with an ATC, so please belay off harness and
>>redirect the rope to the second through a high runner on the belay. This
>>puts the ATC in the same position as it would be when belaying a leader,
>>and maximises friction.
>
>Is there an easy way to escape the belay when it's redirected?
You would have to put a prussik on the rope on the side of the re-direct that says "To Second" and clip that to the anchor. Let some the tension off the ATC and you're free.
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11-Apr-2016 9:12:20 AM
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>You would have to put a prussik on the rope on the side of the re-direct
>that says "To Second" and clip that to the anchor. Let some the tension
>off the ATC and you're free.
Back up that prussik. They can be released under load.
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11-Apr-2016 9:36:09 AM
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On 11/04/2016 kieranl wrote:
>You would have to put a prussik on the rope on the side of the re-direct
>that says "To Second" and clip that to the anchor. Let some the tension
>off the ATC and you're free.
Assuming the "to second" rope and anchor are both within reach while you're leaning back to hold your second whilst getting dragged back into the anchor...
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11-Apr-2016 9:45:51 AM
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Is there an easy way to escape the belay when it's redirected?
Yates Hitch?
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11-Apr-2016 9:50:23 AM
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It's more common that you'd have to haul a second for a few moves, than have to escape the belay.
To tie off second:- You can put a stopper knot well below the ATC and pull a bit of slack through the ATC, then hold on to the rope below the redirect and tie it off in a slippery hitch.
To hau:- sit down on ATC while puling up on the rope from redirect to second
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11-Apr-2016 9:56:16 AM
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On 11/04/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>On 11/04/2016 kieranl wrote:
>>You would have to put a prussik on the rope on the side of the re-direct
>>that says "To Second" and clip that to the anchor. Let some the tension
>>off the ATC and you're free.
>
>Assuming the "to second" rope and anchor are both within reach while you're
>leaning back to hold your second whilst getting dragged back into the anchor...
Granted, though with this setup in most circumstances that's not going to be an issue. If your redirect is going to be out of reach you might want to hang a sling off it - or you could just let your second's weight drag you up towards the anchor. Also when under load the belayer is going to be pulled close to the "to belayer" line, unless of course it's a traverse or you've got a lateral anchor restricting your sideways movement.
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11-Apr-2016 11:00:02 AM
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It's the sort of question that can (and probably will) lead to pages of discussion as there are plenty of opinions out there.
To answer the OPs question though, I'd be so bold as to suggest that the modern day consensus is: Direct off the anchor using an autoblock belay device such at ATC Guide/Reverso or a gri gri - so the top left pic in Mikl's first post.
This is what I do and it works well for most situations and with a bit of practice it's quick to set up and much more relaxing to use that going direct off your harness, particularly if you're second weights the rope at any stage.
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11-Apr-2016 11:54:54 AM
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My 2c worth.
The #2 pic (the yellow one) is my preferred setup. And yes you can escape the anchor fairly easily with a prussic or Ropeman type device. You can also haul someone although I've only done it with someone about 10kg lighter than me - hauling someone heavier with this setup or with more friction in the system would be a challenge (and that's using a Revolver biner with a built-in pulley).
However if there's no convenient high anchor (like when topping out) then I'll belay off the harness. I've never experienced the issue noted in the pick (or should I say: my seconds have never experienced..).
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11-Apr-2016 2:04:02 PM
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On 11/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>Otherwise with an ATC belay off harness and redirect rope through
>a high runner (this gives a lot of extra friction).
You can very easily belay a second without a redirect. The forces are still much less than a lead fall.
On 11/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>It's easy to drop a second with an ATC (RH picture below), so please belay
>off harness and redirect the rope to the second through a high runner on
>the belay.
Yes it is easy to drop a second with incorrect belay technique. That applies in all circumstances. Redirecting the rope is no substitute for incorrect belay technique.
(Not that I see anything wrong with a redirect. But nor do I see anything wrong with a direct top belay.)
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11-Apr-2016 2:32:06 PM
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On 11/04/2016 patto wrote:
>Yes it is easy to drop a second with incorrect belay technique. That
>applies in all circumstances. Redirecting the rope is no substitute for
>incorrect belay technique.
>
>(Not that I see anything wrong with a redirect. But nor do I see anything
>wrong with a direct top belay.)
Uneed2 go back to physics class, or see the angle of the rope in the device in the pic laBld 2 the 2nd.
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11-Apr-2016 2:39:57 PM
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On 10/04/2016 groveller wrote:
>Hi all, what is the preferred option when belaying 2nds on a multipitch?
>Belaying off your harness, attached to an anchor or belaying from an anchor.
>Excuse me for not wording this perfectly.
Grovla, Y din't U make it a poll?
An anotha thing. U say secondZ in Ur thread title, so R U belaying 1 or 2 followers?
Tha contxt makes 4 a heap of diff in useful* replies, and oughta catch a heap of eagR peep replys cold.
If that Ur intentN Grov, then U hav trollD well.
(Where Rya Useful (now Jbro421 or something)? Long time no see a post from U. )
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11-Apr-2016 2:46:01 PM
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All three way work well, it simply depends on circumstance as which ones may be worse in certain situations ....
For most sport climbing with competent seconders then belaying from the anchor is usually best .
Sometimes on trad with less then ideal belays it is best to belay straight from the waist...
In between, belaying via a redirect can work really well...
Learn all three and use as needed . . .
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11-Apr-2016 2:59:37 PM
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On 11/04/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>Uneed2 go back to physics class, or see the angle of the rope in the device
>in the pic laBld 2 the 2nd.
????
Did you not see my reference to incorrect belay technique? Not only is the hand position wrong but the device is threaded incorrectly for a top belay.
On 11/04/2016 macciza wrote:
>Learn all three and use as needed . . .
Agree.
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11-Apr-2016 3:51:08 PM
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In that pic the belayer is taking in rope, but with the ropes in that position and 2nd falls, then they will go farther than Xpectd.
>????
I'm not confused, R U?
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11-Apr-2016 3:55:34 PM
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In general I think belaying off the anchor is a better option. However there are a number of scenarios where I prefer to belay off the harness, these include: if the anchor is by necessity in an annoying location, too low, off to side, perhaps if the device would unavoidably get pulled into an annoying crack (can't think of a time that's been an issue); if the anchor is kinda shit and my stance is part of the belay; if the second is moving fast on easy ground; or if the particularly combination of autoblock device, rope and belay biner creates a metric ass ton of friction. In general only the last two scenarios might have me contemplate a redirected belay, which I only do very infrequently.
As is often the case in climbing it's best to be competent and comfortable with a range of solutions and approach each situation with an adaptable mindset.
Edit to add: I think too much is made of the safety arguments for using an autoblock - that it will continue to function with a belayer of unreliable consciousness (for whatever reason), ease of escaping the belay, etc. The immediate value lies in letting the belayer direct their attention to other tasks like eating, drinking, sorting the rack, or butt scratching without it being any less safe for the second; additionally if the second is going to fall a lot and hang around on the rope, it's generally a drag to have to hold that weight from your harness.
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11-Apr-2016 4:00:46 PM
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Unlike patto?
@ hero with the Yates hitch.
Itz funny till U R on the receiving end of one, but mebe if Ur lucky enough, then4 the rest of us it'll B hilarious.
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