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belaying seconds on a multipitch

patto

11-Apr-2016
4:02:43 PM

On 11/04/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>I'm not confused

If you are not confused then you must just be dumb. I've already stated multiple times that the belay technique shown is wrong.

Jayford4321

11-Apr-2016
4:16:32 PM

On 11/04/2016 patto wrote:
>On 11/04/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>>I'm not confused
>
>If you are not confused then you must just be dumb. I've already stated
>multiple times that the belay technique shown is wrong.

R u accusing our miklgod's pics of being dumb an wrogn?
What page R U on?


Sabu

11-Apr-2016
5:35:22 PM

I choose the one that will result in the most comfortable position for me to sit in while I bask in the sun and occasionally take in the rope.

Seriously though, I use a combination of all three options discussed earlier depending on the circumstances such as anchor position and the likelihood of the second falling. Increasingly though,, I've been using the autoblock set-up off the anchor.

kieranl

13-Apr-2016
1:18:00 PM

I agree with Patto about the bely-from-harness technique depicted. I imagine that it would be very hard to hold a second using that configuration. The rope is oriented as though an auto-block is being used.


ambyeok

13-Apr-2016
4:55:32 PM

Re. that bottom right picture... you feel some tension hit the rope you would snap your hand back and lock it off. Perhaps not instantaneous but I reckon perfectly fine. Sure its poor form shown in the picture but I dont reckon anyone will die. But if he just moves his hand back a foot or so then hey no problem with belaying the second straight off the harness.

Also dont forget that you pretty much cant feed slack or let someone downclimb when on an autoblock, but you will be tempted to, so you will loosen up the rope, release the autoblock with one hand and faff around to feed some slack, all of which arent great if the second choose that moment to peel off. Point here is you can with alot of hassle setup your autoblock to safely feed slack but you wont cause its too much hassle.


southcol

13-Apr-2016
10:32:58 PM

On 11/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>If you have a grigri or reverso/guide device, you can belay off the anchor
>(LH shot). Otherwise with an ATC belay off harness and redirect rope through
>a high runner (this gives a lot of extra friction).
>
>

>
>It's easy to drop a second with an ATC (RH picture below), so please belay
>off harness and redirect the rope to the second through a high runner on
>the belay. This puts the ATC in the same position as it would be when belaying
>a leader (LH picture below), and maximises friction.
>
>

I would go for second top pic in yellow, but why only lower off one anchor point rather than the equalized point the belayer is connected to? or back up the lower off point to other points, especially for some trad anchor/directional set ups. Balance the load.

mikllaw

13-Apr-2016
11:01:26 PM

On 13/04/2016 southcol wrote:

>I would go for second top pic in yellow, but why only lower off one anchor
>point rather than the equalized point the belayer is connected to? or back
>up the lower off point to other points, especially for some trad anchor/directional
>set ups. Balance the load.

A second is body weight only, if your belay is so poor that you can't lower a bod off half of it, start downclimbing pronto. Certainly don't lead above it


Southcol

13-Apr-2016
11:54:12 PM

The belay equalised may be good. However, one piece with a directional load independent from the belay equalisation point may be compromised especially in trad or mountaineering with marginal placements. I would equalise a body load in that scenario.


deadbudgy

14-Apr-2016
10:43:21 AM

In the past i would usually belay off the harness using a redirect. Now days I will belay with the auto-block off the anchors the majority of the time.


Macciza

14-Apr-2016
9:24:55 PM

On 13/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>A second is body weight only, if your belay is so poor that you can't
>lower a bod off half of it, start downclimbing pronto. Certainly don't lead above it

Seriously Mikl? A redirected second when caught is 2 body weights at the anchor.
Why would you hang of two (half body weight on each) and belay off one (at double body weight)? Sure if they are well placed bolts in good rock it should be fine but it is counter to the general concept of a two piece equalised belay setup.

Perhaps the most important thing is to try to be well back from the return point as you can be and ideally with your weight opposing the expected force i.e. lean back on your attachment. As opposed to being close to the anchor and leaning into it.

Cheers

martym

14-Apr-2016
11:00:09 PM

On 14/04/2016 Macciza wrote:
>On 13/04/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>>A second is body weight only, if your belay is so poor that you can't
>>lower a bod off half of it, start downclimbing pronto. Certainly don't
>lead above it
>
>Seriously Mikl? A redirected second when caught is 2 body weights at the
>anchor.
>Why would you hang of two (half body weight on each) and belay off one
>(at double body weight)? Sure if they are well placed bolts in good rock
>it should be fine but it is counter to the general concept of a two piece
>equalised belay setup.
>
>Perhaps the most important thing is to try to be well back from the return
>point as you can be and ideally with your weight opposing the expected
>force i.e. lean back on your attachment. As opposed to being close to the
>anchor and leaning into it.

Sometimes positioning makes it difficult, but in the gym photo provided there is a lot of room for a runner to be placed in the central point of the anchor without impeding the belayer, so iagree in this case no need to place the main load on one anchor point.

martym

14-Apr-2016
11:04:49 PM

What is people's preferred method for top belay from the very top - for example at Point Perp where you have nothing to raise the anchor from?
Auto blocks get scraped all over the rock; belaying from harnsess threatens to pull you over the edge... Dangling over the edge with the anchor is a might precarious...
Eg


ajfclark

14-Apr-2016
11:09:00 PM

Autoblock getting scraped all over the cliff is better than me getting scraped all over the cliff...


Macciza

15-Apr-2016
8:44:31 AM

Either belay from harness is a position similar to that shown ...
Or probably stand partway down cliff leaning back on tether with focal point just past the edge. The beauty of this setup is it allows you to easily watch your seconder climb .... Precarious?? Nah ...

kieranl

15-Apr-2016
8:59:17 AM

On 14/04/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>Autoblock getting scraped all over the cliff is better than me getting
>scraped all over the cliff...
Could the autoblock being jammed against the cliff-top interfere with the action? I don't know but wonder about the effect of external forces on a device that relies orientation to work. Do petzl or bd have anything to say about this?

In practice it would be surprising to not be able to find some irregularity in the rock surface where the autoblock can be positioned so it's not scraping against the rock (granite excepted). You could even put your shoes under the powerpoint just behind the device to get a little clearance.

bendi

15-Apr-2016
9:18:21 AM

If the second falls, the belayer will have his leg pinched under the rope. In this photo probably not a big deal, but in other scenarios it can be a big bitch. I always like to be hanging over the edge on a daisy chain or whatever and have the belay device on the focal point nicely positioned over the edge (like hanging belay). Can easily escape belay and in much better position to perform a rescue (z-drag) and its more comfortable and probably have a better view of climber.....If you think hanging there is precarious you probably wouldn't like abseiling over the edge and pulling your ropes down to the start of the climb anyway.


deadbudgy

15-Apr-2016
9:20:47 AM

On 14/04/2016 martym wrote:
>What is people's preferred method for top belay from the very top - for
>example at Point Perp where you have nothing to raise the anchor from?
>Auto blocks get scraped all over the rock; belaying from harnsess threatens
>to pull you over the edge... Dangling over the edge with the anchor is
>a might precarious...
>>

In that position I'd still belay off the anchor but without using an autoblock, positioning myself relative to the device to be able to powerfully lock it off. Also, I've found Munter hitches are ideal in this situation and will often use one over a device.

kieranl

15-Apr-2016
9:22:09 AM

On 14/04/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>Autoblock getting scraped all over the cliff is better than me getting
>scraped all over the cliff...
There is however the slight problem of your hands getting scraped between the rope and the rock.

Anyway, every situation is different, just have to adapt and use the most applicable technique.


ajfclark

15-Apr-2016
10:56:59 AM

I don't tend to find that's an issue K. I can't get words to work to describe my setup, I'll have to show you sometime maybe.

As for the guide mode atc getting jammed against the cliff, when I'm directly on top of the cliff, I usually have the brake strand on the top, so the thing pivots up from the cliff to release, not underneath. I find the grigri is far more problematic in this situation.

kieranl

15-Apr-2016
11:27:42 AM

On 15/04/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>I don't tend to find that's an issue K. I can't get words to work to describe
>my setup, I'll have to show you sometime maybe.
>
>As for the guide mode atc getting jammed against the cliff, when I'm directly
>on top of the cliff, I usually have the brake strand on the top, so the
>thing pivots up from the cliff to release, not underneath. I find the grigri
>is far more problematic in this situation.

It would be good to see as I rarely use the autoblock mode (extremely rarely in fact) so don't have a good appreciation of the nuances.

There are 58 messages in this topic.