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General Climbing Discussion

Author
FYI; New Canadian Ice Climbing Grading System
mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
5:03:12 AM
DO NOT CHIME IN ON THIS GRADING SYSTEM UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN CLIMBING ICE 15 YEARS OR LONGER. I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE BEEN CLIMBING ROCK FOR 30 YEARS AND ICE FOR TEN YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THE BACKGROUND TO COMMENT

A herd is a social grouping of certain animals of the same species, either wild or domestic. The form of collective animal behavior associated with this is referred to as herding. The term herd is generally applied to mammals, and most particularly to the grazing ungulates that classically display this behaviour.

So another winter approaches and the ice season is upon us. Thousands of climbers are preparing to attack the ice even as I write these words of unspoken truth. Something that I have noticed over the last few years (make that ten). The number of ice climbers has increased dramatically from year to year. I am sure this has to do with the availability of cool climbing images that social media and other digital formats provide in a effortless abundance. The other might be even more primeval. The 3 million year old instinct of trying to attract a mate. For instance in the metropolis of Calgary, AB there are thousands and thousands of climbers many of which hang out at various waterholes that specialize in selling adult beverages. In a room full (lets say a 100) of climbers the vast majority (9 to 1) are rock climbers. Of these one in ten will be a female of the species. As males do they will hover around trying to attract the potential mate by going on about the numerous hard sends the have under their belt. The incredible long 20 minute walk in to the crag which buts them a good 40 minutes from the nearest location where they can get a half caffe latte with extra foam and sprinkles. The kind of thing that shows just how primeval a creature this rock jock is and certainly has the female of the species thinking I want to have babies with this animal for surely they will be the strongest of the strong. Spartan in their perfection and surely anybody who can forgo a half caffe latte for so long a time must be a complete dominating animal in the sack. ( sorry to any women out there who are offended by my ability to read you basic instincts, but I have been a guide for far to long and it is my job to know what you are thinking even if you yourself don’t know you are thinking it) Now I shuffle up to the cluster of competing males and listen to their meaningless garble. As a ice climber it’s a lot like listening to a bunch of eunuch's smack talk about what they would do with a playboy bunny. I wait for the right time to drop in a nonchalant way that I am a “ ice climber “. Instantly the tone of the boasting changes. The Alpha male gorilla has just entered the room. Without fail the plastic pulling rock jocks give way no longer willing to meet my gaze lest I pull their arm off and beat them to death with it. For I am Tarzan, King of the Apes. The alpha (and beta) female of the vertical mobile species has a look that morphs from one of admiration to pure lust. Several megs of iPhone memory will be allocated to the numbers of future conquests. This is one of the great perks of being a ice climber.
However I fear that my dominance of the vertical tribe may be coming to a end unless I do something about it. Thirty years ago with straight shaft tools, hand crafted leashes and crampons that required 8 allen screws to adjust made ice climbers as rare as the proverbial hens teeth. However today with the introduction of leashes tools, razors sharp ice screws, synthetic clothing not to mention mono-point crampons you can’ swing a dead cat in Canmore without hitting a ice climber. As a result it is time to rethink the ice climbing grading system. To be honest it is a poor grading system to start with. Starts at grade 2 which I am not sure what that really is. The astronomical leap between grade 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 required a plus or minus clarification. The range was just too vast. The comparison to say rock grades is even possible but also not very accurate. Calling a solid WI4 a 5.9 might give you some idea but to some rock climbers transitioning to ice would be a sandbag for some and a give away for others. The actual 4+ or 4-does a pretty good job or did.
However it’s 2015 as Justin say’s and it’s time to face the facts. The very nature of ice climbing has changed. When I see a fully formed icefall today that has less then a two hour approach it reminds me of a scene out of the “Walking Dead” where you are running in front of the herd and as far as you can see are the living dead armed with ice axes. The poor icefall does what it can to protect itself. But no matter how cold it is or how much free running water the ice fall dies a slow agonizing death. All that remains are the picked out bones of a once nobel icefall. Within days of forming there are more holes in the ice then a rural Alberta deer crossing sign. Any climber to come behind the herd there remains nothing but fully formed pick holes and all the challenge of climbing a peg board.
This is where we have to add a third dimension to our grading system. Let me introduce to you the need for a PICKED OUT (PO) grade. This would compensate for the herd and give a better over all idea of just how difficult the climbing actually is. For example the Recital hall climbs in the Ghost . The guide book say’s that Fearful Symmetry is grade III 6 X and its companion climb Rainbow Serpent is III 6. This was a accurate grade when Joe Josephson’s Waterfall Ice guide book came out in 1994. The grade most likely held true up to 2005. Then came the herd!
Both these climbs have formed a couple times in the last few years and I have had the opportunity to climb these puppies. After climbing them it occurred to me that there are four to five hundred climbers out there occupying the adult waterhole attracting my potential conquest calling themselves ice climbers. Grade six ice climbers at that or so they are telling others. The thing is that the once nerve wracking, terror inspiring Rainbow Serpent was little more then a grade four plus (4+). I will give it a five minus (5-) out of respect for the climb. The same holds true for Fearful Symmetry. What once was one of the most challenging ice climbs on the planet is reduced to little more then peg board climbing. While a few kilometres away we did the years first ascent of Hydrophobia (WI V 5+) that taxed the courage and skill of three 20 year veteran climbers. Every pick placement hard won while crampon points scrapped through layers of chandler ice desperately seeking purchase. That day I prayed to every deity from Zeus to Buddha begging they spare me from death (or worse). In return I promised to give up everything from red meat to masturbation ( all of which went out the window as soon as the rope hit the ground on the last rappel. I’m only religious when my life is in jeopardy, otherwise I’m a diehard atheist.) What it had that day was the old school challenge that made ice climbing the sport that it was.
For the sake of fairness not just to the old school “I remember when” crowd but also to the smartphone carrying, leash-less herd we MUST introduce the “Picked Out” grade. So how is this going to work you wonder. I’ve given this some careful thought and I have the solution. First off waterfalls will now have a floating grade. On the first few ascents of a waterfall the original grade will naturally stand. Just like there was a time when the boats were made of wood and the men were made of steel we have to except that the revolutionary improvement of equipment has vastly decreased the difficulty of ascending frozen ice. It’s much like staring down a Viking, sword in hand and carpet bombing peasant villages from 10,000’. There is just no way to relive or compare those experiences. Today’s climbers will never challenge a grade 6 waterfall with a straight shaft Stubia equipped with a homemade leash. So be it, times have changed. Lets just reset and use 2015 as a baseline.
Lets use some of the more popular climbs as baseline for this grade. Those being Louise Falls grade (GR. 4+/5), Guinness Gully (GR. 4), Polar Circus (GR. 5). There are several others but these climbs get enough traffic that these poor icefalls die a death of a thousand chops. It has gotten to the point that if you don’t get on the easily approachable popular climbs within the first few days of forming you will never have the pleasure of climbing them in their natural state.

Here is the breakdown for the grading system
PO-0; This is a virgin ice climb that has yet to taste steel and/or has heeled itself to the point that it leaves no trace of a prior ascent.
PO-1; Here the may be nothing more then a couple usable pre-made tool placements but a bit of the chandelier ice has been cleaned and perhaps a few of the hanging icicles that you could have dropped on your partner are no longer present.
PO-2; This is really an extension or PO-1 but to a slightly greater degree. Signs of travel are present and former ice screw placements may be present and possibly utilized.
PO-3 This is the point where the handicap system really takes place. You can now freely utilize the drafting mechanism. 20% of your hand tool placements are a gimme requiring almost no swinging to build a firm purchase. When you feel the need to place a screw you can choose from one or two of the pre-placed holes that other climbers have constructed for you or build your own. Foot placements have become slightly obvious.
PO-4 You have pretty much entered the realm of peg-board climbing! You have to build no more then 1 or 2 placements and thats only because your glass eye’s have fogged up. The main issue is that one in every 10 moves may require you switch tools from one hand to the other. Foot placements are obvious to the point that you have a very distinct feeling that you are on a ladder. The only exception to the rule is that if your 4 foot nothing or seven feet tall you may have to shuffle things around a bit to get to that optional foot placement you are searching for. The standard right hand screw placement is nearly (if not) impossible. Lefties may still be left with this option.
PO-5 Here it no longer matters what your shape/size is. You can no longer place a new pick hole as there is no possible place to put one. The main challenge here is to choose between the seemingly endless amount of pick holes. The foot placements are so well defined that if you place your front points against the ice it suddenly feels overhanging. You also no longer have the option of placing a screw into fresh ice as the is no possible way you can get one in on either hand placement.

There stands the newly introduced supplemental grading system. Much like our present ice grading system a plus or minus sub grade can be helpful in describing the type of climbing that one is likely to encounter.
Now we come to the beef of the problem so prepare for a little methane gas. What is the mathematical formula to figure out the actual grade of ice that you are climbing. This will be subjective of course but that can be true for all grading systems be they rock or ice. The Yosemite Decimal System (YDS) that we use here in North America is a classic example. The 5.9 a number of years ago was a sandbag grade. This was because for a few years nobody wanted to destroy a perfectly functional decimal system. For some unexplained reason they did not simply move on with a pure numbering system and introduce the logical 6.0 followed by (you guessed it) 6.1. I see no need to explain further the point being that grading systems are not a static thing as much as we would like them to be. Evolution in the sport of ice climbing requires that for the sake of accuracy the grading system evolve with it. So I will give a couple of examples of climbs at various ends of the spectrum.
So lets say Rainbow Serpent a solid grade six when formed and has a PO-0 to a PO-2 with it being just slightly easier at the PO-2 end but not so much that it has diminished the nature of the overall “out there” experience. We can still say that it is a easy 6 or perhaps a 5+. A respectable grade still the same and worthy of some bragging rights at the afore mentioned adult beverage dispensary. However I have climbed this same route when it was a PO-4 possibly a PO-4+. The route was really no harder then grade 4 in it’s difficulty. There was a certain physiological factor in that it was a sustained vertical column of ice but i did not have to go through the effort of actually creating placements. A couple moves off the deck I realized this and sailed up the climb in a tenth of the time it would have had it had a grade of PO-1.
Guinness Gully in Field, BC is another classic example. The herd attacks this one early in the season. The first two pitches are often are the PO-4 grade within weeks of the climb forming. Making those two pitches a exercise in decision making with there being so many potential placements to choose from. The third pitch however often heals itself and can remain a PO-1 well into the middle or end of the climbing season depending on the weather and the amount of free flowing water. There is often the option of choosing a drier line which may be in a PO3 to a PO4- condition. So when describing a climb to another climber be they a newbie (noob) or a seasoned veteran one is able best describe the overall condition or the route on a pitch by pitch bases.
I am pretty sure that this easy to adopt system will not require a whole lot of overthinking. In fact it is so easy that sports enthusiast from lesser disciplines such as snowboarding or bouldering who have recently taken up ice climbing would be able to understand it. So there it is! I have said what everybody else has been thinking for quite awhile. It is for you the seasoned vets and the enthusiastic noob’s to to embrace this and become part of climbing History. Once we have implemented this perhaps we could consider the Straight Shaft Before Leash-less Tools ( SSBLT ) grading system.


Edited by Mike J Barter (11/10/15 06:20 AM)
_________________________
Homeless mountain guide (refurbished) living in the alleys of Banff.
http://www.mountainguide.com
tomatessechees
11-Nov-2015
9:40:55 AM
Mike Barter, as you already know, you're a Canadian Rockies legend with the best Youtube channel of them all.

But why would an Aussie climbing forum care about your next gen Canadian ice climbing grades?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11-Nov-2015
10:10:40 AM
On 11/11/2015 tomatessechees wrote:
>why would an Aussie climbing forum care about your next gen Canadian ice climbing grades?

I for one see strong parallels in it with the dumbing down of adventure climbs by retrobolters...
Additionally I am also bemused (yet again) by the YDS vagaries of grading system alluded to in the original thread post*.

(* A good read but a few more paragraph breaks would make it easier reading?)

mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
10:15:16 AM
Cause half of Australia is here at the moment handing me a beer over the bar, taking my dinner order or helping me onto the chairlift. One in 5 of the people I teach ice climbing is has something other then a US drawl or a Canadian accent. I figure they must be a KIWI, OZ or Brit. I have a hard time telling you guys apart. This way they can look a little smarter then the Kiwi and the Brit!

While we're at it you know the difference between a Canadian and a Australian?
The Aussies got caught. Which makes us a better class of criminal I guess.

rodw
11-Nov-2015
10:33:11 AM
I thought Canada was french ancestry with the English just being illegal immigrants?
BA
11-Nov-2015
11:43:30 AM
On 11/11/2015 rodw wrote:
>I thought Canada was french ancestry with the English just being illegal
>immigrants?

We have to thank the French because without them helping the USofA in their war of independence to defeat the British, the Brits wouldn't have bothered shipping their convicts (and free settlers) half way around the world to here. That means we would probably have been American!!!

We have a lot to thank the French for.
mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
12:02:12 PM
Dude I so apologize!! I said " This way they can look a little smarter then the Kiwi and the Brit! " I said "look smarter" when I meant "sound smarter". Of course your not going to look smarter. Once again sorry about that!
One Day Hero
11-Nov-2015
1:13:28 PM
I tried ice climbing in the rockies once, didn't really get what all the fuss was about. The thing is, you can get the same experience right here at home. I'm not talking about Blue Lake ice, you gotta go climb some of easy lower-cliff choss-fests at Point Perp. Seriously, its very similar to ice climbing. There are horizontal breaks every half a meter so there are no 'moves', just front on laddering......hand, hand, foot, foot, repeat, repeat, boring as shit. Also the rock is barely strong enough to support human weight, and the gear is so shit you almost might as well solo.......ta da, the ice climbing experience.

If it weren't for the amazing quartzite at Lake Louise, Alberta would be a climbing wasteland!
mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
1:57:18 PM
You do realize that if you know absolutely every thing there is to know about rock climbing you know 1/2 of 1% of what it takes to be a mountaineer in the Rockies.
kieranl
11-Nov-2015
1:59:11 PM
On 11/11/2015 mikebarter wrote:
>Dude I so apologize!! I said " This way they can look a little smarter
>then the Kiwi and the Brit! " I said "look smarter" when I meant "sound
>smarter". Of course your not going to look smarter. Once again sorry about
>that!
As you might realise, mikebarter, after reading OneDayHero's post, some of us won't "sound smarter" either.
One Day Hero
11-Nov-2015
2:07:28 PM
On 11/11/2015 mikebarter wrote:
>You do realize that if you know absolutely every thing there is to know
>about rock climbing you know 1/2 of 1% of what it takes to be a mountaineer
>in the Rockies.
>
You're exaggerating. How much is there to learn about total choss, really? What I want to know is how the god-awful shit in the Rockies can be grouped in with actual good limestone like most of Europe, or Bungers?
mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
2:43:18 PM
Your right I am exaggerating. Make that 1/4 of 1%.
widewetandslippery
11-Nov-2015
2:46:19 PM
On 11/11/2015 mikebarter wrote:
>You do realize that if you know absolutely every thing there is to know
>about rock climbing you know 1/2 of 1% of what it takes to be a mountaineer
>in the Rockies.
>

you sound pretty full of yourself mate. come for an outing in the Wollemi. no snow no ice plenty of never never.

as for a grading system for over used routes, firstly grades are there to appeal to the narc wanker in us all. Making a new grading system for a vestibule of communal masturbation is rather dirty.
beean
11-Nov-2015
3:41:35 PM
Christ Joe, is no forum safe from you?
mikebarter
11-Nov-2015
5:18:45 PM
Actually I think my work here is done. Course the chances of me getting a beer in Banff or food that hasn't been spit in have been greatly reduced. When they swing the chair unnecessarily forward at the hill 9 out of ten times there is a boarder to take the brunt of the impact.
and no I am on a mission to upgrade the the grading system and I don't care if I have to kill every dingo in OZ to do it.
Jayford4321
11-Nov-2015
7:03:39 PM
On 11/11/2015 mikebarter wrote:
> and no I am on a mission to upgrade the the grading system and I don't
>care if I have to kill every dingo in OZ to do it.

We don't have much ice so who gives a f? Our grading system shits all ova any others includin Urs so Ur not gonna wind up many @ this end.

>I am pretty sure that this easy to adopt system will not require a whole lot of overthinking. In fact it is so easy that sports enthusiast from lesser disciplines such as snowboarding or bouldering who have recently taken up ice climbing would be able to understand it. So there it is! I have said what everybody else has been thinking for quite awhile.

U ova estimate boulderers.
Nah, we havn't been thinking bout Ur silly new system and we arn't gonna adopt it now we know ya have it.
U need 2 get a life outside tha internet, but if ya can't hack that, go an troll the yanks cos they bite easier.

An yeh, welcome back to ODH. What did U name your lower tier Point Perp route?
Let me guess.
Aint no canadian ice turkeys round here?
stuart h
11-Nov-2015
10:19:17 PM
This reads like something that wants to pretend that it is a satire but fails because the author fundamentally believes in the claim being made. (Clearer paragraphing would help too.)

Developments in equipment have made ice climbing dramatically easier. It has also become much more popular. Like similar developments in ski mountaineering, I am inclined to think that this is causal as well as correlative.

Waterfall climbs are much easier when they have had some traffic. This has always been the case. I have no doubt that increasing traffic means that this shows up faster on classic routes & more on distant routes than was the case a decade ago and that this is most obvious in the Canadian Rockies.

Writing about grading seems a disappointing response to these developments. Surely, even if you are supposed to be a parody, a more interesting approach exists in the possibility of climbing new, interesting and difficult routes, rather than complaining that other people might be getting or claiming easy 'ticks'. It is a bit like proudly declaring yourself the best player in D-division without remembering that you just aren't really all that good.

Fundamentally, I believe that rock climbing is not complicated & ice climbing is not very complicated and that grading is overwhelmingly an aid to people repeating routes and that the climbing of others is not as interesting to anyone as their own climbing and that it would be a lot more interesting if you wrote a trip report about the Ghost than this tiresome drivel.

Also, since you are supposed to make a living climbing as a guide, I think you should be more polite about the 'herd'.

edited: to add inverted commas around 'herd'

ajfclark
12-Nov-2015
7:55:47 AM
Is there a TL;DR version of the opening post? Maybe with some formatting so it's readable?

Miguel75
12-Nov-2015
9:59:03 AM
Man alive, I have posted some serious nonsense to Chockstone and reckon this is right up there with the best...

On 11/11/2015 mikebarter wrote:

>However I fear that my dominance of the vertical tribe may be coming to
>a end unless I do something about it.

Sharing a new ice climbing grading system with people living a billion miles away will help you stay dominant? You're funny.

>.......Thirty years ago with straight shaft
>tools, hand crafted leashes and crampons that required 8 allen screws to
>adjust made ice climbers as rare as the proverbial hens teeth. However
>today with the introduction of leashes tools, razors sharp ice screws,
>synthetic clothing not to mention mono-point crampons you can’ swing a
>dead cat in Canmore without hitting a ice climber.

Are you still keeping it real by climbing with your thirty year old equipment? If you do manage to get a video of you hitting an ice climber with a dead cat (or even a live one) will you please post it up here for us?

>.....certainly has the female of the species
>thinking I want to have babies with this animal for surely they will be
>the strongest of the strong. Spartan in their perfection and surely anybody
>who can forgo a half caffe latte for so long a time must be a complete
>dominating animal in the sack. ( sorry to any women out there who are offended
>by my ability to read you basic instincts, but I have been a guide for
>far to long and it is my job to know what you are thinking even if you
>yourself don’t know you are thinking it)

I knew a bloke who felt he had the same preternatural ability to discern what women "really" wanted. He's now in jail for doing bad things to women..

I too know what it feels like to have once been the arm tearing off, death dealing Alpha male; why only last week I was at my sons kinder class regaling them with tales of my heroic exploits. It was awesome, they listened without interrupting, mouths agape, little eyes filled with a look of envy and it was then I knew; they wanted to be just like me! Later on the teacher told me that the kids thought I was a Policeman...

I hope you get lots of awesome climbing away from the herd this year. I also hope your quest to share your new Canadian ice climbing grading system takes off in Australia and any other ice climbing epicentres worldwide.
stugang
12-Nov-2015
7:12:35 PM
> In return I promised to give up everything from red meat to masturbation ( all of which went out the window as soon as the rope hit the ground on the last rappel.

so you whacked one off in the snow at the bottom of the climb while eating a steak. Not sure whether I'm impressed or repulsed. I hope that wasn't with a client.

There are 20 messages in this topic.

 

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