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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 38
Author
Extreme sports and kids...

Miguel75
20-May-2015
8:58:15 PM
Here's an interesting article about kids and extreme sports;

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/magazine/is-it-wrong-to-let-children-do-extreme-sports.html?_r=1

As a parent who takes the kids to the skate park, and climbing amongst other super rad things I found it an interesting read. My son broke his wrist at the Newport bowl not too long ago and I still feel like it was somehow my doing and I reckon I'd definitely review my preferred family activities if my kids suffered multiple spleen ruptures and 10 concussions... I reckon they're too young, and have too long a life to put up with the residual effects of such brutal injuries. In saying that, I 'd love to be able to skate like the kids in the article...

phillipivan
20-May-2015
9:51:43 PM
I admire your willingness to let your kids suffer through the first eight or nine concussions before reconsidering Mikey. That's what makes you a good bloke.

I propose to solve the problem by admitting that rock climbing just isn't very extreme. Nor is skate boarding.

Wendy
21-May-2015
7:22:33 AM
I'm so boring and all, I know, but I do wonder about the "extreme" end of all sports for kids. Everyday sports like football produce a shitload of injuries (just ask Simey). Or gymnastics. Putting all that effort into training takes time away from other things in life that are also important. Competition puts pressure on them to perform and succeed. It's pushing not yet fully developed bodies (and minds) to their physical limits. It's particularly when the pressure (from self or others or even just desire) to do something overrides reasonable caution. 10 concussions and 6 seizures? Holy f---. He's lucky he can still function. Lots of sport and "risky" physical activities are great. They should be fun. More people should do them. Do we need to have children at the cutting edge of them? Well, not really. It's amazing that we have 8-10 year olds climbing 32 or v10 or other such things way beyond me. But what are the long term effects of putting that level of strain on a growing body? And at what age is a child really capable of understanding the risks, assessing their skills and position and making good judgement calls associated with climbing? Most adults struggle with it! Still, I guess most of them aren't ending up with permanent brain damage. Some things are definitely more risky then others and in general, I'm rather unkeen on anything that means if I fall off, I hit the ground.
martym
21-May-2015
9:51:28 AM
I'm reminded of Tito Traversa. I don't know the specifics - but I wonder how his quickdraws ended up the way they were? Would an adult have been more cautious? 12 year olds might not know fully grasp "correct" equipment use as well. Perhaps it really was just bad luck.

But I am heartened by this statement:
"Sandseter and a colleague found that those who said their parents encouraged things like rock climbing and kayaking were less prone to criminal and antisocial behaviors "

I think any activity that gets kids off the couch is great... but I would be concerned about encouraging them to compete at extreme levels. Then again, look at beauty pagents.

Is it the kids who are so keen or are the parents creating that need to be the best? Perhaps it's both?
Reluctant
21-May-2015
10:46:36 AM
My 14 yo climbs. She started at 10. It suits her personality. My boy 10 won't climb and I won't push him. Totally different mindset. Yet he does boxing and will face up to 1st grade players at full pace in the cricket nets. I get scared watching that.
I coach in several sports. Recklessness is universal to every sport, extreme or not. Harnessing that endeavour within their ability is the goal. Hard to accomplish.

As for extreme sport for kids with injuries my prize goes to horse riding. Breaks, concussions, dislocations from falls etc.
Wendy
21-May-2015
11:11:41 AM
On 21/05/2015 Reluctant wrote:

>
>As for extreme sport for kids with injuries my prize goes to horse riding.
>Breaks, concussions, dislocations from falls etc.

There's that guaranteed to hit the deck thing again ... I have a friend who dr looked at scans of her neck (at 40) and the first question was "did you ride horses as a kid?". Neck damage for life.

ajfclark
21-May-2015
11:14:59 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tito_Traversa

Tito Claudio Traversa (April 22, 2001 – July 5, 2013) was an Italian climber[1] who died of complications from a climbing accident in which he fell from a 50 feet (15 m) groundfall on July 5, 2013 at the age of 12.[2][3][4] An investigation by French officials revealed that his quickdraws were assembled incorrectly, with the carabiners threaded only though the rubber keeper, and not through the full-strength sewn loop at the ends of the quickdraws that are designed to support the climber's weight. According to public prosecutor Raffaele Guariniello, eight out of ten of Traversa’s quickdraws were assembled this way. Five people have been charged with manslaughter in the case. Among those charged is the owner of the company that produced the rubber keepers without instructions, as well as the owner of the gear shop that sold the keepers. The manager of the club that organized the climbing trip, as well as two of the instructors who were at the climbing site, have also been charged for failing to check the safety of the equipment.[5]

rodw
21-May-2015
11:49:46 AM
Wow thought this a bit harsh..

"Among those charged is the owner of the company that produced the rubber keepers without instructions, as well as the owner of the gear shop that sold the keepers."

I thought the onus should be on the user of rock climbing equipment to know how to use it....different to it failing if used correctly...can kinda see why the instructors are in the poo though, I image there is a default onus of care when climbing with a minor

...wonder if he was an aging fat 40's something nobody climber if they would be making such a fuss.


Macciza
21-May-2015
12:02:21 PM
Well yes there is usually a warning that the user of the equipment should know how to use it ....
But that is usually IN the instruction and refers to the instructions . . .
So if there are no instructions ... How do you warn people they need to read them first . . .

ajfclark
21-May-2015
1:28:43 PM
I wouldn't have thought a picture of the correctly fitted ring would be too much to ask. You have to put a price tag on it so there must be somewhere to put a picture. If there's no instructions with the piece of equipment, how is someone supposed to know how to use it correctly?
patto
21-May-2015
1:54:08 PM
On 21/05/2015 ajfclark wrote:
>I wouldn't have thought a picture of the correctly fitted ring would be
>too much to ask. You have to put a price tag on it so there must be somewhere
>to put a picture. If there's no instructions with the piece of equipment,
>how is someone supposed to know how to use it correctly?

Yeah i bought a kitchen knife the other day and then accidentally severed my finger. I'm suing the manufacturer there were no instructions on how to correctly use the knife.
martym
21-May-2015
1:54:32 PM
To avoid Thread Hijack I've commented on Tito Traversa in the existing forum.

Seems that clubs have a duty of care to ensure safe conditions for kids climbing.
patto
21-May-2015
3:28:02 PM
On 21/05/2015 martym wrote:
>Seems that clubs have a duty of care to ensure safe conditions for kids
>climbing.

No surprises there. Clubs can have an extremely high duty of care towards kids and adults that join and participate in their activities.

When a novice joins a club and is allowed to climb with a member, the club as well as the member have a significant duty of care to the novice. Should an incident occur, the potential liability for the club is significant. All it will take is a lawsuit from one angry relative to destroy a climbing club.

Even without a club. If I as an experienced climber take my mate George for a climb a strong duty of care exists.
One Day Hero
21-May-2015
3:41:42 PM
On 21/05/2015 patto wrote:
>Even without a club. If I as an experienced climber take my mate George
>for a climb a strong duty of care exists.

Really? Has this been tested?
Wendy
21-May-2015
4:12:46 PM
On 21/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 21/05/2015 patto wrote:
>>Even without a club. If I as an experienced climber take my mate George
>>for a climb a strong duty of care exists.
>
>Really? Has this been tested?

I'd like to see that go down in a court. Suddenly, no one would teach anyone anything. Supervising a learner driver? Nope. Teach your kids to ride a bike? Nope. Volunteer to coach football? Showing someone how to use power tools? Nope. Maybe origami. People might still feel ok teaching their mate origami.

Aside from that, I agree with the instructor's issue (and it may well apply to club trip leaders, but maybe not general members?). If you are claiming certain skills and paid accordingly, you should damn well be doing the job in accordance with those skills. And I think it would go down in court that you have a duty of care such that a reasonable person of similar skills would consider your course of action reasonable. Would a reasonable instructor (note, not a good instructor, just a reasonable one) have checked the kid's gear? If we want climbing instruction to be recognised as professional, that also comes with responsibilities. Which is also why I am against the general lowering of standards that happens across the industry because the conditions are so crap that not many people with decent skills stay around long and just about when new guides get enough experience to be good, they also realise as a career, it sucks and become paramedics and teachers.
patto
21-May-2015
5:48:37 PM
On 21/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>Really? Has this been tested?
One case was settled before trial

On 21/05/2015 Wendy wrote:
>I'd like to see that go down in a court. Suddenly, no one would teach
>anyone anything. Supervising a learner driver? Nope. Teach your kids to
>ride a bike? Nope. Volunteer to coach football? Showing someone how to
>use power tools? Nope. Maybe origami. People might still feel ok teaching
>their mate origami.
If you don't think that you owe others a duty of care in these activities then you are kiding yourself.

>(and it may well apply to club trip leaders, but maybe not general members?)
It can most definitely apply to general members.

Have a read about the tort of negligence and duty of care. Wikipedia is a good start.
Wendy
21-May-2015
9:18:22 PM
On 21/05/2015 patto wrote:
>On 21/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Really? Has this been tested?
>One
>case was settled before trial

That being an american case though
>
>On 21/05/2015 Wendy wrote:
>>I'd like to see that go down in a court. Suddenly, no one would teach
>>anyone anything. Supervising a learner driver? Nope. Teach your kids
>to
>>ride a bike? Nope. Volunteer to coach football? Showing someone how
>to
>>use power tools? Nope. Maybe origami. People might still feel ok teaching
>>their mate origami.
>If you don't think that you owe others a duty of care in these activities
>then you are kiding yourself.
>
>>(and it may well apply to club trip leaders, but maybe not general members?)
>It can most definitely apply to general members.
>
>Have a read about the tort of negligence and duty of care. Wikipedia
>is a good start.

I know all about negligence and duty of care. What I am suggesting is that if we start applying legal duty of care to a whole bunch of non professional activities, we are going to end up on a very slippery slope to not ever doing anything. When one is not in a situation of relying on a professional, in a kinda contracted relationship, one needs to take responsibility for assessing the person we are relying on. When you get in a car with a mate, if you don't like their driving, you should speak up or get out. You dont wait for an accident than sue them for negligence. If you get on a bus and the bus driver drives negligently, well, you should probably still speak up or get out, but the duty of care is very different as they are presenting themselves in a professional capacity and you have contracted their services in buying a ticket expecting them to drive as a reasonable bus driver would.

Sometimes you are placed in situations where you don't know much about the field the person is claiming expertise in. You can still exercise other skills in assessing their competence. Can they explain what and why they are doing things? Does it seem logical? What can they tell you about their history doing this? Is there anyone who can confirm it? In the case of children, I would say the onus on the person teaching increases, because the capacity of the child to judge the situation is more limited, even when they are friends or family. In fact, in the best world, all people offering their serivices to teach in any capacity would be safe and competant in what they were teaching, I imagine we have all seen situations where this was not the case. I saw a bunch of trainee guides at the Mt recently that gave me the heebee jeebees. In the Tito case, they were apparently instructors. So the duty of care thing should apply whether he was 12, 20 or 60.

People do need to take some responsibility for themselves otherwise we will all just have to do origami. And I'm not that into origami.

patto
21-May-2015
9:57:08 PM
On 21/05/2015 Wendy wrote:
>I know all about negligence and duty of care.
Your very next sentence contradicts this assertion.

>What I am suggesting is that if we start applying legal duty of care to a whole
>bunch of non professional activities, we are going to end up one a very slippery
>slope to not ever doing anything.
A "legal duty of care" already exists to a "whole bunch of non professional activities". This is not a new thing.

One of the most common situations where people often are negligent and breach their duty of care to complete strangers is in a car accident.

On 21/05/2015 Wendy wrote:
>People do need to take some responsibility for themselves otherwise we
>will all just have to do origami.
How is a novice climber in a position to take responsibility for themselves on the cliff-face? They have put their trust in the "expert" mate. If that mate is negligent then they can very much be held liable.
Wendy
22-May-2015
7:50:44 AM
On 21/05/2015 patto wrote:

>A "legal duty of care" already exists to a "whole bunch of non professional
>activities". This is not a new thing.
>
>One of the most common situations where people often are negligent and
>breach their duty of care to complete strangers is in a car accident.

As car drivers, we are licensed. That suggests something saying that we are appropriately trained and skilled and registered.
>
>On 21/05/2015 Wendy wrote:
>>People do need to take some responsibility for themselves otherwise we
>>will all just have to do origami.
>How is a novice climber in a position to take responsibility for themselves
>on the cliff-face? They have put their trust in the "expert" mate. If
>that mate is negligent then they can very much be held liable.

I'm not saying take responsibility for themselves on the cliff face. I'm saying take responsibility for making an assessment of the person they are about to put their trust in. That's using normal everyday communication and investigative skills rather than blindly trusting. I'm sure we all know people who spout on like experts when they are not. Climbing is unregulated. We have no tickets saying we are skilled and capable. We don't even really have any sort of standards of practice. Most climbers learn from a mixture of friends, self taught, books etc. Lots of climbers do really dumb things. Taking average practice as an example could look pretty ordinary. Sometimes these really dumb things result in bad accidents. In that environment, you have to make an assessment of the person teaching you.

Say someone is teaching their child to ride a bike. Child falls off and breaks arm. Estranged husband then sues for negligence. People teach kids to ride bikes everyday. Kids fall off bikes everyday. Even if the mother put the child on a bmx and sent him round the local jump track, are they negligent? or just stupid judgement? There is no standard of how to teach kids to ride bikes. What about the father of this skateboarder then? Was it negligent to put his kids on the mega ramp? Or even a normal ramp? A horse? My mate has a horse, I might pop over and get them to show me how to ride it. The horse throws me off. Are they negligent? Is it negligent to let these young kids lead routes, where the need for judgement and risk of injury is higher than top roping? Or bouldering where they could hit the ground from a good height? There's also a discussion about acceptance of risk in choosing to engage in the activity. When I get on the horse, it should be pretty obvious I could be thrown off the horse. But what if it is a particularly volatile horse? How am I supposed to know that? Should I have asked? Is there a duty of care to tell me this is a jumpy horse? I mean, I would, as a sensible person, tell someone that sort of thing. But is it legally necessary? Claiming negligence in recreational climbing seems like a massive step down a slippery slope - and as they settled out of court, it hasn't really been tested yet.

Medical professions, building codes etc are way more clear. When you engage these people, you can reasonably expect them to have been trained and adhere to certain standards. You shouldn't have to use you own investigative skills (not that that isn't still a good idea).

Seriously, I broke a fingernail doing origami. No one warned me that origami pose a risk to my manicure. Doesn't that make them negligent?
martym
22-May-2015
10:33:38 AM
On 21/05/2015 patto wrote:
>On 21/05/2015 martym wrote:
>>Seems that clubs have a duty of care to ensure safe conditions for kids
>>climbing.
>
>No surprises there. Clubs can have an extremely high duty of care towards
>kids and adults that join and participate in their activities.
>
>When a novice joins a club and is allowed to climb with a member, the
>club as well as the member have a significant duty of care to the novice.
> Should an incident occur, the potential liability for the club is significant.
> All it will take is a lawsuit from one angry relative to destroy a climbing
>club.

Sorry, it appears sarcasm didn't translate well. As it happens I was co-presenting a presentation on risk management for my university outdoor club two nights ago...
Perhaps I should have added italics?

While obviously clubs & their leaders have a duty of care - one of the issues faced is what is "common" sense?

We stress that people should never assume any prior knowledge - even if someone tells you they have it. Observation of their skills will tell you way more than what they tell you verbally.
With young kids you should be even more vigilant - never assuming they remember what you did last time.

I once watched an amazing 6 year old leading "Santa's little helper" at Thompson's point. While I was in absolute awe of her composure, I couldn't help wondering what the parents were going to do if she froze up, had a tantrum or just freaked and started soloing or dropped all hear gear? (She didn't) They didn't have a rope to jumar up, they didn't even have a friend to help belay one of them up. They'd have to solo.

Another thing people don't think about when young kids roar off up a top rope for 15 meters - is they then look down and refuse to lower! Surely most of us will have seen the parent yelling words of encouragement to the terrified 10 year old clinging to the wall for dear life?

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