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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 11 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 239
Author
Manufacturing
KP
8/07/2005
1:00:23 PM
dont go on about yesterday
i wouldn't know about that anyway...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/07/2005
1:30:24 PM
"yesterday...
... all my troubles seemed so far away,
& now it looks as though they're here to stay,
... Oh I believe, in yes..t(o)erday !! "

The Seekers (of new lines)?

rodw
8/07/2005
1:30:33 PM

>Wouldn't that be half of Upper Shipley? Some of thsoe batman starts are
>huge!

Yeah true, different issue though Im talking about bolting on holds...one ethical debate at a time neil:)

nmonteith
8/07/2005
1:40:29 PM
I can think of one route in Victoria that would be mega popular and three stars if it had a bolt-on hold
rather than a silly aid move. Dance of Life (24 A0) on Taipan Wall. Currently you traverse across a ledge
for 10m then reach up to a hard to clip bolt, then swing from this across right to an undercling, then start
climbing a super three star trad headwall for 30m to the top. Totally classic.
igoitz
8/07/2005
2:00:01 PM
I believe that there is a huge difference between drilling holes to place bolts and sculpturing the wall as you please, just because you cant get your arse up there. What you will do next install a lift because you realized you get tired when you climb?? Apart from environmental issues, to drill or not to drill, bolts or trad gear, be honest to yourself and if you canít climb without these manmade holds walk away to rialto tower, there must be hundreds of steps to walk up and down!!! Enjoy yourself but leave the walls as they are thanks!!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/07/2005
2:11:45 PM
On 8/07/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>I can think of one route in Victoria that would be mega popular and three
>stars if it had a bolt-on hold
>rather than a silly aid move. Dance of Life (24 A0) on Taipan Wall. Currently
>you traverse across a ledge
>for 10m then reach up to a hard to clip bolt, then swing from this across
>right to an undercling, then start
>climbing a super three star trad headwall for 30m to the top. Totally
>classic.
Pendulum off a bolt to follow natural features on a headwall?
This actually DOES sound like a totally classic adventure, and one that I might aspire to myself.
... Hard to pendule off a bolt-on-hold though.

Brings to mind Flight Of The Phoenix in the Warrumbungles (a totally classic mega popular climb). It can be done in classic style as a pendule (aka 1st ascentionists), or for those capable ... via one of the more direct variations, more or less straight up.
gemmaw
8/07/2005
3:22:15 PM
Another manufacturing incident mentioned in the latest Rock, in the article about James Scarborough: he was trying a boulder problem in Germany, came back to try it again 2 days later and in the meantime someone had enhanced a couple of the holds! Hold enhancement also happened to a Fred Nicole V15 he was keen to get. Now that makes me spew!!! It's one damn awful thing to chip the rock when attempting to create a new route, but another even worse crime to chip where others have succeeded before!

In general, Australian climbers have good ethics, are a friendly lot and have fun climbing (of course there are always those who spoil it for the rest, in all these aspects). Let's keep it that way and not follow the path of many crags/climbers overseas. I think one of the advantages in Australia is that we have plenty of rock in relation to the number of climbers using it. Therefore we can afford to be selective and shouldn't feel inclined to put a route up every piece of rock that we can lay our hands on, particularly if the result is nothing all that good.
KP
8/07/2005
3:40:52 PM
melbourne has a limited amount of rock.
gemmaw
8/07/2005
3:53:52 PM
On 8/07/2005 KP wrote:
>melbourne has a limited amount of rock.

So do most cities, but the climb mentioned at the start of this thread is in the Grampians.

nmonteith
8/07/2005
4:03:24 PM
The climbs mentioned on the first post of this thread are fictional - an invention of someone in desperate
need of attention. A troll as it was. There is no crag full of chipped routes in the grampians.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/07/2005
4:07:11 PM
... but there are plenty of people who would bolt on holds; or worse, some who would chip routes.

alrob
8/07/2005
5:24:42 PM
just to clarify my statements, i am totally for the idea....if its not just KP having a nibble....

putting it in point form, makes my opinion easier to understand, so here we go

- On a worldwide, generalised way, i don't like chipping. chipping of established routes is worthy of castration. chipping your way up a route to make it easier, a no-no.

- i have seen the route, climbed on it. no-one else here has, apart from KP.

- I think about this not on the worldwide, generalised scale. but on the local melbourne crag scale, and the abilities of climbers close to the area.

- One discreatly place edge, or pocket, on a wall that see's very little traffic, is not the apocalypse

- This hold will open a fantastic climb, that is within the abilities of more people to enjoy at grade 25, then it would be for the 1 person who does the FA at grade 29.

- Why do we climb? and i don't mean the serenity, or the nature aspect - we can get all that bush walking. what drives us to climb is the physical nature. the ability to be able to work out how to move our bodies up a peice of rock.

- Once you put your fingers on the hold, it's just like any other edge, pocket or sloper - it's something we use to get our way to the top.

- If your so concerned about ethics, that a single enhanced edge or pocket gives you nightmares, then don't widen you vision to the tyraid to bolts, chalk, polished rock and rap anchors present at almost all crags in the world, as you might just have a heart attack.


sabu
8/07/2005
6:39:02 PM
everyone is mentioning this move called a batman and i've never heard of it before. wat exactly entails a "batman". is it like taking a run up and jumping to a particular hold thats otherwise out of reach?

nmonteith
8/07/2005
7:01:43 PM
Nope. You stickclip quickdraw (with rope) into a high bolt. You then 'batman' (hand over hand) up the rope
to the hieght of the first quickdraw. You then start climbing. This is utilized commonly in the Blue Mtns
where the first 2m of many climbs are either heavily vegeated, undercut or blank.

rodw
8/07/2005
7:03:43 PM
> chipping your way up
>a route to make it easier, a no-no.

But isnt that what was done? Your right I wont have a heart attack over it, but the question was asked and it seems as a majority, people dont think it should have been done..... End of story.

If you want to go and chip more "new" routes fine...just dont ask peoples opinions about it or expect approval from the majority.

alrob
8/07/2005
7:08:38 PM
On 8/07/2005 rodw wrote:
>> chipping your way up
>>a route to make it easier, a no-no.
>
>But isnt that what was done? Your right I wont have a heart attack over
>it, but the question was asked and it seems as a majority, people dont
>think it should have been done..... End of story.
>
>If you want to go and chip more "new" routes fine...just dont ask peoples
>opinions about it or expect approval from the majority.
>

by 'chipping your way up a route', i meant enhancing of a lot of holds overthe entire route, as opposed to a single hold to make the route better then a nails one move wonder.

rodw
8/07/2005
7:40:57 PM
Define "A lot of holds"...is it 2, 3, 4, or maybe more holds...either way your bringing the route down to your level, but if your fine with that, do it, just don't expect pats on the back from the general climbing community.

There are plenty of one move wonders out there, most become peoples "first route for the grade" which provides a stepping stone or inspires people to try other endurance graded routes out there of that grade, if they all started being changed to make the routes more consistnat at the grade...and it became acceptable to do so...I think that would be a sad day for australian climbing.

sabu
8/07/2005
11:33:58 PM
On 8/07/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Nope. You stickclip quickdraw (with rope) into a high bolt. You then 'batman'
>(hand over hand) up the rope
>to the hieght of the first quickdraw. You then start climbing. This is
>utilized commonly in the Blue Mtns
>where the first 2m of many climbs are either heavily vegeated, undercut
>or blank.

ahh ok i see now!!! i was trying to picture something batman would do?!?!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
9/07/2005
12:48:01 PM
On 8/07/2005 alrob wrote:
>(snip) its not just KP having a nibble....

>- I think about this not on the worldwide, generalised scale. but on the
>local melbourne crag scale, and the abilities of climbers close to the area.
In what timeframe?
If it is only todays or this years, then you are being short term / short sighted.

>- One discreatly place edge, or pocket, on a wall that see's very little
>traffic, is not the apocalypse
Probably true in one sense (for the moment), but it desecrates the rock; current ethics and future ascentionists 'challenge' opportunities.
Traffic WILL increase in the future regardless of your thoughts now.

>- This hold will open a fantastic climb, that is within the abilities
>of more people to enjoy at grade 25, then it would be for the 1 person
>who does the FA at grade 29.
Only one? What about repeat ascentionists?

Once the general climbing standard was less than Gd 20.
Now its higher.
Would you like all the climbs presently just out of YOUR reach comfortised down to your level? The future ascentionists will not thank you when the general climbing standard reaches beyond what you conceive this line to be.
You reckon its not an apocalypse.
How would you feel if I came along and said Gd 25 why? The precedent has already been set with the additional pocket/hold/whatever, I will just add this extra additional pocket/hold/whatever and then its a "fantastic climb, that is within the abilities of more people to enjoy at grade" (sic) 20 !!
You think this won't happen? What about the next new line that goes up on that cliff with such a precedent already (allegedly) accepted?
If others did this (ie reduce it from a Gd 25 to a 20), to your present project you would feel cheated.
Welcome to the club; ... because that is how your proposal makes me feel.
Please don't do it for me. I DON'T want your (or any) climb 'made with this ethical standard' for me no matter how hard or easy. I would leave it as being little better than a contrived line that should have been made indoors and left there while ever I had other choices.
If you doubt this line of reasoning then compare a quarry to your project. Would you think they are in the same class? I know where I prefer to climb!
With Aid climbing in my resume I can hear you (& others?) saying I am a hypocrite.
Maybe so; ... because I have climbed 'manufactured' lines, but I have found the non-manufactured lines to be better, particularly when done as clean-aid.
I also clip bolts and I consider them often to be 'necessary for safety' evils. What you propose is not in this category.

>- Why do we climb? and i don't mean the serenity, or the nature aspect
>- we can get all that bush walking. what drives us to climb is the
>physical nature. the ability to be able to work out how to move our bodies
>up a peice of rock.
This exact reason is also the justification to leave it as a one move Gd 29.

>- Once you put your fingers on the hold, it's just like any other edge,
>pocket or sloper - it's something we use to get our way to the top.
Yes, but climbing also can (& does for many) involve integrity, higher aspirations, adventure and even (dare I say it) ethics!
The mental challenge of getting past the Gd 29 part, to the reward of the grade 25 part; for some, will be the essence of the climb.

>- If your so concerned about ethics, that a single enhanced edge or pocket
>gives you nightmares, then don't widen you vision to the tyraid to bolts,
>chalk, polished rock and rap anchors present at almost all crags in the
>world, as you might just have a heart attack.
I also lament these negative aspects. There-in is our dilema we call climbing!

Why don't you just stick clip the 1st bolt and batman past the Gd 29 move?
In times past there was a legitimate act called 'combined tactics'.
A Climbing Team considered it fair game to stand on the belayers shoulders to access the opening moves of a climb, and I don't think the climbs were written up as being M1 !!

... So, you could always report your 1st ascent truthfully as being Gd25/M1 ?
Or give it a sandbag grade of 25 !!, ... and leave another to free it at Gd 29, ~> which negates the need to enhance the climb thereby lowering the ethical standard.

Its all a game.
:)

PS Well said (various on 08/07/05) rodw
Here endeth the nibbling frenzy on my part for the day!

================================
Post edit re the picture below;
R: "What grade do you reckon this is Batman?"
B: "Just keep crankin Robin; ... there must be a manufactured hold around here somewhere!"

... alternatively .."Is that your utility harness Batman, or are you just pleased to belay me here?"
jiminy cricket
9/07/2005
10:12:13 PM
On 8/07/2005 sabu wrote:
>ahh ok i see now!!! i was trying to picture something batman would do?!?!

and he would! Or at least he used to...(in the 60's). How else would he have got up the batrope? You're too
young Sabu!




Batman start with matching Batman belay?

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There are 239 messages in this topic.

 

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