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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 239
12:25:02 PM
perhaps people need to learn to chip 'naturally' so its undetectable...... sculpture lessons anyone?

12:28:20 PM
How come everybody got so upset about cossy's 34 then. he was first ascentionist and modified the route to suit, which is what chipping does. Neil yourself claimed some people coldnt fit their fingers in your drill holes, so in effect you were enhancing to suit your "style" (finger width) as well?

I cant see the "its been done in the past, so its alright" arguement as valid. If you cant do it, walk away, dont be so selfish to think your offering this line to the community, when in fact you could be stealing it from future generations in its natural form.

I certainly cant see any relation to bolts vs chipping, completely different scenarios. If you going down that path, list chalk, sticky rubber, dynamic ropes which like bolts (as opposed to chipping) do not change the moves of the route and leaves them for everyone else to do or make it safer so people dont fall and die. Chipping is purely to change a line so something you couldn't do, can be done by you, thus changing the original nature of the route. If you gonna do it at least be truthful to yourself that your doing for yourself not to benefit the wider climbing community, and dont try to grey the issue with bolts.

12:28:37 PM
On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>>hmm - how suprising. Your email adress bounces.
>Try again. I had it entered wrong on my profile.

ho hum - still not working.

12:30:25 PM
Yeh fair call. Nowra has been pretty much Ryo-bit-ized.

A random aside. There was a classic in the ACT in the 80's. A very naughty boy (get it) who now resides in Victoria chipped the crap out of the West Face of the Belfry (a 40m granite spire) and then spray-painted the climb with various inflammatory and inciting remarks directed at the traditional climbing establishment. It was very post modernist - but what can you do? I would be wondering what rules you can really apply here apart from peer pressure and ostracization - because the act of climbing to start with is anarchistic in nature and flies against the authorities - ie if you complained about such an act (as I've described here) to Parks and Wildlife, climbing in its entirety would likely be banned in that area.

It is vague and necessarily poorly defined moral ground

12:31:55 PM
At first I also thought this topic was in jest. A fabrication to troll for responses. If so, you have lured me into responding as well...(Warning, rant approaching)..

Victoria has well over 10,000 climbs and nearly half of them are in the Grampians. If you need to chip a route to get up it, then please, please walk away. If you want to place a bolt where trad will suffice, then also please, please walk away. If the area is already bolt free consider carefully, it should probably stay that way. We already have more than enough climbs for everyone of all styles, abilities and occasions. You are kidding yourself if you think anyone wants a chipped route, or that "your" line is anything special. Please do not tarnish us all and plunge access issues into the murk with your actions. Go and climb the thousands of other established routes instead.

End rant. Sorry but I had to say something.

12:37:11 PM
On 11/08/2004 rodw wrote:
>I cant see the "its been done in the past, so its alright" arguement as
>valid. If you cant do it, walk away, dont be so selfish to think your offering
>this line to the community, when in fact you could be stealing it from
>future generations in its natural form.
I don't think you understand the impossiblity of the section of rock. I have climbed with the current stronger generation and am well aware they have no chance of doing this section and again i say if the next generation does it with out these holds i will fill them in. Have you yourself bolted rodw. Do you know the amount of hard work and money that goes into such an expedition.
Sorry neil I didn't change it completly. Try again.

12:41:23 PM
On 11/08/2004 Mike wrote:
Please do not tarnish us all and plunge access issues into the
>murk with your actions. Go and climb the thousands of other established
>routes instead.
Mike, are you opposed environmentally?

12:43:01 PM
Mike makes a good point about the 5,000 (retro-edited, thanks Kent) routes in the Grampians. Could I ask then what is the driver for bolting and chipping these new routes that Robbo speaks of?

On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:

>rodw. Do you know the amount of hard work and money that goes into such
>an expedition.

Well, I would counter this by saying that if the activity is so expensive it would merit proper scoping and prior inspection before you start sinking metal into the rock - ie prepare each line on it's merits - don't grid bolt because you will invariably bolt something you can't climb and have to resort to chipping. Most of chipped routes in France and Germany end up chipped for this very reason

Following from Kent's question. I think that the issues with chipping can only plausibly be interpreted as ethical/moral/esoteric/subjective etc as they pertain to climbing's collective artifical standards (all valid by the way) and not environmental - not given all the other crap going on with bushwalkers, walking tracks, roads, look-outs etc. By comparison, the environmental impacts of bolting and chipping are minor (with the exception of the noise of a petrol drill) and the rock, for the most part, is not even a living environment - aesthetic impacts are also minimal.

1:28:25 PM
Yeah Robbo Ive botled a few lines here and there and don't see your point re expense vs the right to chip?

Its definately not an environmental issue but more an ethical issue.

1:36:43 PM
On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>I don't think you understand the impossiblity of the section of rock.

You're missing the point robbo, or do you know that? ;-)

I'm sure lots of people have climbed 20th Century Fox in the Gramps? Well what makes that route for me is the unclimbable steep orange rock on the right hand side. Many splitter lines are like that also.

2:32:43 PM
On 11/08/2004 kent wrote:
> I don't see the harm in chipping a hold or two to fill in the blanks...

Kent I can't believe you really feel this way! If you follow that line of thought further people would be bolting plastic holds onto the rock. Our national parks are places of beauty. If you head in with a hammer and chisel are you really doing anyone any favours? Not to mention that it's illegal and certainly against Parks code of conduct. See:
"Chipping of rock is both illegal and unethical"

Please bare in mind that this is a public forum and quite possibly read by "the powers that be". Also consider that new commers or outsiders to our sport might be forming an opinion about climbers in general based on what is said here. We are not talking about kicking a couple of loose flakes off on the way up. We are talking about deliberately manufacturing routes - something people do in gyms!

On 11/08/2004 kent wrote:
>How's the new mountain bike man ?

Super cool! Hydro brakes are fanastic. Rode for 6+ hours on the weekend. Nearly dead by the end of it, but very happy. Can't believe I skipped a climbing trip to go riding!

2:39:38 PM
ok - i will be the devils advocate - or just plain 'the devil'. If I push off a loose block the size of a bar-fridge whilst 'cleaning' my new line - and then drill a single mono pocket - which is the worse crime? Current ethics say the single pocket is a huge no-no but the loose block is ok to remove because it could kill someone. Wouldn't the 'powers that be' care more about the loose block than a tiny drill hole??
2:46:09 PM
Loose block or drilled pocket will provide the same result. An excuse to stop climbing either as a result from the death from the block hitting someone if left or from manufacturing the pocket. Easy option for the Authorities is to ban - one less user group to worry about.

Nick Kaz
3:13:35 PM
On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>Have you yourself bolted
>rodw. Do you know the amount of hard work and money that goes into such
>an expedition.

Did you say you have climbed in the Bluies? Checkout

I always thought that climbing was about adapting to what is there, not changing it. Thats where the challenge comes from. Trundling loose blocks happens, like bolts its a safety thing. Busting in a hole so you can climb something defeats the whole purpose of climbing it, might as well put up a ladder, albeit a steep and difficult one.

3:24:00 PM
My point was not about the ethics of the action - but about MikeB's comments regarding outsiders and National Parks taking offence to the practice. I think to the general public there is zero difference betwen chipping a hold and trundling a loose block/wire brushing/digging dirt out of a crack/etc etc...
Online Now
3:33:01 PM
neil, I agree with this one... Parks or similar would look very poorly on trundling, often more so than bolts or chalk in some areas (eg in sinny/blueys blocks and floaters on the top are often home to the Broad-headed Snake, a listed endangered species - so there may be various legal implications other than just placing an installation in a park. Which is how bolting is viewed, legally, in NSW NPWS areas).

Chipping - ahh fer FS, it's soooo 1980's. We have gyms now. Vent your creation there. I doubt if Lugarno, Diamond Bay or the Glen would have become slotfests even a few years later as gyms became an obvious avenue. Chips are shite.

Glueing - now there's a nice little issue.
3:33:16 PM
According to Parks Vic climbing code of conduct there is no difference.

Vegetation, even on cliff faces, is protected. Wire brushing to remove mosses and 'gardening' in cracks and gullies is not permitted. Use slings to protect trees while belaying or abseiling if belay anchors are not provided.

3:49:38 PM
Yes that's right - the issue concerns only the ethics, standards and philosophy of free climbing. In that context drilling/chipping should be frowned upon for the reasons that most have alluded to in this thread.

The environmental aspect of drilling/shipping is separate and is an issue for Parks management to address in formulating their policy - as Martin points out it is currently the same as bolting. In light of that I reckon that as time goes on it will become more and more difficult to place a bolt in cliffs in National Parks, let alone drill a perfectly round, succulent, juicy slotter pocket in the middle of a blank section of rock.

BTW our agent provocateur has grown strangely quiet, now that his dastardly deed is complete
3:54:05 PM
Upgrading Troll meter to T2 - as we are now up to three pages...

3:56:37 PM
I am 98% sure he is a troll. His email adress changed three times - two bounced and one didn't get a reply. Good topic though! If Robbo really has done what he says he has I don't imagine the routes will last that long. The Nati crew will be in hot pursuit as he runs back across the border.

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There are 239 messages in this topic.


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