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General Climbing Discussion

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Manufacturing


shmalec

11-Aug-2004
4:40:17 PM

ethically, there is no difference between drilling a couple of finger pockets and blowing up a line of dynamite to create an artificial chimney/crack.

Just because its small doesn't make it ok. its not temporary....its permanent. that means that 10 generations from now it will still be there. how do you want these places to look in a hundred years time? Full of artificial pockets, chipped holds, piton scars?


HM33

11-Aug-2004
4:42:27 PM

whats the difference between drilling a bolt hole and drilling a pocket?


rodw

11-Aug-2004
5:09:47 PM

re-read the previous posts.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Aug-2004
5:13:57 PM

On 10/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>I Drilled a series of pockets. My friends have almost chosen to disown me.
Rightly so.

>So i'm doing just as much drilling as would someone who grid bolted the area.
If someone else is an environmental and ethical vandal, it does not make similar (your) actions right.

>Are you opposed environmentally or opposed to the taking of something from the future of rockclimbing.
Both.

>Please explain this stupid moral ground.
"In Nov. 1970 Warren Harding & Dean Caldwell made the 1st ascent of "The wall of the Early Morning Light" on El Capitan, in the process drilling three hundred and thirty three holes in the rock, for bolts/rivets/hooks.
Late Jan. 1971 Royal Robbins & Don Lauria started up the route removing bolts as they went. After removing 40 bolts Royal started having 2nd thoughts on the matter, due to respecting the hard climbing between the bolts, so he stopped removing them and finished the route as it existed.
He recognised Hardings faults but also respected Hardings ability.

It was a famous, unpleasant chapter in Yosemite climbing for both Harding and Royal, and one person was likely as damaged as the other, (due to polarisation of attitudes within the climbing community). Yet it was a milestone that no one would soon have to go through again, because the point seemed to 'take' with the climbing community; ... they were adequately repulsed by the overbolting."
(quoted from Pat Ament; 'Royal Robbins Spirit of the Age').

... and they say history (never?) repeats itself ?
The 'bolt ladders' between the (then) hard climbing of the day, have now largely been circumvented by modern freeclimbing standards, which the protagonists could hardly have imagined at the time.

Grow up robbo, and show some respect. Do some research on attitudes and ethics so you can;
>understand where their coming from.
It may take a while till;
>some young punk figures out how to do it without these holds,
but I for one don't want to wait to see if you are still around to;
>fill them back in,
when that happens.


robbo

11-Aug-2004
5:20:05 PM

So what i can understand from what has been said is that there is no environmental issue but an issue of ethics of being a rockclimber. Shall i just refer to my self as a rockclimber who chips and then it's out there. I still can not quite understand from what is being said that there is an opposing arguement. We've established it has just the same impact as bolting and that it is possibly taking from the next generation. I've said i will fill them in if someone climbs it without the pockets. So it's a moral issue among climbers?


nmonteith

11-Aug-2004
5:28:20 PM

On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>So it's a moral issue among climbers?

Yep - thats about it. Same as placing bolts next to cracks, claiming redpoints when you actually dogged the route, pre-placing quickdraws etc.


robbo

11-Aug-2004
5:36:39 PM

I see your point about bolts next to cracks. But redpointing is a defenition not and ethic. You either redpointed it or you didn't. Wheather you lie about it though is up to you.


nmonteith

11-Aug-2004
5:47:50 PM

On 11/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>I see your point about bolts next to cracks. But redpointing is a defenition
>not and ethic. You either redpointed it or you didn't. Wheather you lie
>about it though is up to you.

But you are morally wrong if you say you redpointed when you actually dogged! Rules are made to be broken... IMHO.


nmonteith

11-Aug-2004
5:50:19 PM

[an open letter to Robbo]
I guess what concerns me more is the alleged fact you popped down from Sydney for a month, found a crag by helicopter, bolted and chipped it then sprouted about it on Australia's biggest climbing internet forum. Did you ask any locals about the crag/route etc? Some of our areas are deemed 'trad only' and are protected by the hoards of trad Nati. A mystery character a few years ago bolted an arete right next to the tourist track in the Stapylton Amphitheater and left huge ring scars visible to tourists and rangers for more than a year before he came and actually put the bolts in. The Grampians has many sensitive areas and many aboriginal art caves which may not be visible to the un-trained eye. Before I bolt anything at a new crag in the Grampians I research all the guides (there is at least 15 of them) and then look at all the new routes that have been published by the Vic Climbing Club, then ask the older guys who developed in the area (ie Glen Tempest, HB, Mick Hampton, Baxter, Steve Monks etc) to see if there would be a problem. If all appears to be ok then I can get to work. I don't imagine many NSW climbers would appreciate if I popped up to the Blue Mtns and started doing my own new routes without asking any local. I don't want to sound bitter - but I think you need to step back and see you may have pissed off a great deal of climbers in Victoria. Tread softly and ask around before drilling. New routes are always great - and I am sure I would enjoy your climb. I would really like to continue this discussion and I don't want you to think i am a bitter local defending his territory! I don't have a huge problem with chipped holds - i just think most other Vic climbers do have a problem so I try and respect their ethics when in Victoria.

Sincerely,

Neil


alrob

11-Aug-2004
6:12:21 PM

what would everyone here say about the route if they did it and didn't know about the drilled holes? if you came back and raved about how good it was, then found out part of it was manufactured?


Damietta

11-Aug-2004
8:07:09 PM

On 11/08/2004 alrob wrote:
>what would everyone here say about the route if they did it and didn't
>know about the drilled holes? if you came back and raved about how good
>it was, then found out part of it was manufactured?

I think it becomes pretty apparent that things aren't natural when you sink two fingers deep into a perfectly symmetrical, deep, slotter with scars all around it.

However, I take your point ie is it wrong if you didn't know about it? I think that it would feel wrong to most people when they DID know the hypothetical route was drilled, or at least they might think less of the first ascentionist - depending how the offending hold fits in with the context of that particular area - Nowra, no worries, the Gramps - based on the posts in this thread today it sounds like we gotta problem.

You're right.In a sense the drilled hold physically is not so much of a problem for most of us, but it is what it implies and how it cuts across the philosophy of freeclimbing in that particular area.

Neilo, the debate is very interesting and we've all got across some good points, but you shouldn't waste too much effort in responding specifically to our VB drinking friend (have one for me, mate). I will be very interested to see what comes of this.

His early quote:

>>I like long walks on the beach

sums it up

chris

11-Aug-2004
8:08:54 PM

The point of manufacturing holds is not whether it is done or not. Like Neil and Mike Law have shown in the past, the important thing is not to tell anyone!
Mike seems to be past the point of worrying about it, but everybody else just has to "deny, deny, deny"!


mousey

11-Aug-2004
8:56:33 PM

>I still can not quite understand from what is being said that there is an opposing arguement

situation- you went out in a helicopter in a foreign state and without being aware of the local ethics decided that because you couldnt climb a route, you would chip it

argument- what you did was wrong

outcome- cop it on the chin, maybe even fill the holds in, and treat it as a lesson. i havent got anything personal against you for what yo did, just hopefully you won't do it again...but the way that you defend what you've (supposedly) done is pretty pathetic....

personally it doesnt affect me that there are chipped holds out there in a remote part of the gramps that i was unlikely to ever lay eyes on, but the amount off effort you went to surely you could have just found another line- it really was unnccessary. we all (those of us who 'know the cost of such an expedition') have at one time looked at a bit of rock and thought 'that would make a nice line, if there was a hold there and there to make it possible'- just picture how big the grampians are and how many untouched lines there are....

--------------------
thought to add- i was climbing with rodw last weekend, he was having a go on a project of his- which he sent, well done rod- and we were looking at the top....the main feature of this particular bit of rock is a massive bulge starting near the top of the cliff. rod had put the anchors just at the bottom of the bulge, meaning that in our eyes it was 'climbable'. though i seem to remember that we both expressed how useful a little pocket would be, and how much 'nicer' the climb would be with that extra length and pulling over the bulge, i remember looking at it thinking 'someday someone is gonna come along who CAN crank on that'.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Aug-2004
9:26:13 PM

On 11/08/2004 alrob wrote:
>what would everyone here say about the route if they did it and didn't
>know about the drilled holes? if you came back and raved about how good
>it was, then found out part of it was manufactured?
Please allow me to answer tongue in cheek ...
What if I took a truckload of explosive to a cliff and blew it to rubble because I liked climbing manky tallus slopes; then came back raving about how good it is / how few explosives it took to do it etc, and that my action was no worse than the open-cut mine down the road aways ...

If the original post is not a troll, then the climb should be written up EXACTLY as it is, (chipped + controversial + inyaface-whatever, & led by a recalcitrant!).

'Tis a sad day as we are all diminished by this action methinks ...


phil_nev

11-Aug-2004
10:01:01 PM

I agree with neil! You drop down from the blueys, where chipping is rampant and glue on gym hold are present in a number of places... You find a nice crag in the gramps, bolt it, and drill a few extra holds on it to bring it down to your level. As neil said, it is worth checking out the ethics of the area before you even think about bolting a route, Let alone adding artificial holds.

A number of people here have been out to VD land in the gramps, if you have, you will have noticed the AMAZING totaly blank walls on your right on the way in. They run for a couple of hundred metres... From the ground, its pretty clear that there are no holds on the wall and it will most likely remain unclimbed. Everytime i head out there, i am inspired just looking at the amazing walls, bright orange untouched rock, free of chalk and bolts, and it would be nice if it stays that way....

Oops, i let the cat out of the bag.... Next time i head out there i expect to see robbo drilling and chipping his way to glory on his new super classic 3 star grade 14. Congratulations man, you might even make the next selected guide....

Phil


mousey

11-Aug-2004
10:08:37 PM

ill try make this my last comment on the issue-
a problem or route is a 'problem' not because we need to get to the top and cant firgue out how, its because we cant do the moves and need to solve it- chipping isnt solving the problem its just yelling out the answer for everyone who doesnt want to hear it, who wants to figure it out for themselves.

just curious, what did you call the route, and what did it go at?


Damietta

11-Aug-2004
10:44:19 PM

OK Wobbo, I think you get the messaage

f--- off back to the Blueys mutherf---ER.....

and take your fricking RYOBI wicha
You stick around here much longer
And someone's gonna hitcha
Gotda damn picha
An We aint gonna missya
Much rather dissya

Heavy D (an dere aint no fat boys)


phil_nev

11-Aug-2004
10:56:19 PM

Damietta said what i was thinking.... Just with a little less tact!
Well done Heavy D!


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
9:14:00 AM

His name is Rowan (Rohan?) Druce not Robbo.


rodw

12-Aug-2004
9:15:35 AM

Just to clarify, chipping isnt rampant in the Blueys or any where, like most places with history you will find examples of it, but to say its rampant, implies its accepted ethics which it isn't.

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