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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 57
Author
Grid bolting at Windjammer Pt Perp
bigfish
1-Dec-2014
7:37:25 AM
So after a week end down at Pt Perp I have noticed a lot of development there. I am not against development but would prefer natural lines and routes that get close to them to be left natural or at a bare minimum mixed if that is the ethics there, with enough room between original routes left.

I thought I would put it out in the climbing community to see what ethics should be enforced and in what state we would like these mega classic crags kept for future generations of climbers.

This is mainly in regard to Windjammer and Grey Mist area. Where most routes originally are either all trad, use bolt plates or are mixed.

There are a lot of new ringed routes down there at the moment. I am not against ringed routes but when they are 1 meter apart and just put in to fill a small gap between great routes then this is poor form. Why does there need to be new ringed routes right next to mega classic mixed or trad routes?

These new routes are all way too close together or provide a bail option from the trad or mixed routes next to them.

These new routes do not add anything to these walls, and they do not fit in with the style or ethics of this wall.

There is a lot of rock down at the pt, and room for new crags or area's if these people want ring only routes because they dislike trad or are against placing gear on a route for what ever reason.

Pt Perp is an amazing, unique area to climb in Australia, and a great place to get a little scared or intimidated.

Well climbing community, I put it to you all. What would we like to see these walls look like in the future and how they should be climbed.

Zarb
1-Dec-2014
10:55:18 AM
I swear this issue comes up monthly.
mikllaw
1-Dec-2014
11:35:43 AM
I'd like to comment but the rules are :-
You can't talk ethics until you've done all the routes on the wall.

It stops people whining about the unknown,

The good Dr
1-Dec-2014
1:05:49 PM
No ethical issues here ...

Now if you want to discuss the style of routes being established then go ahead.

Big G
1-Dec-2014
2:42:14 PM
about a year late
White Trash
1-Dec-2014
2:46:48 PM
On 1/12/2014 Big G wrote:
>about a year late

odh mighta got in first but it sounds like the issue he raised back then is still valid.

my tuppence worth is gridbolting should be banned, especialy if they diminish trad climbs.
uwhp510
1-Dec-2014
5:45:31 PM
One of the problems as I see it with the newly bolted ...routes... (and I use that term advisedly) is that their developers have imported the sport climbing doctrine to a pretty traddy, adventurey cliff, whereby routes can just stop in the middle of the wall at a lower-off . There's a fair old section of Windjammer that is quite blank over the last 5 metres or so, and its here that much of the gridifying has occurred due to the space left underneath the blankness by the previous developers who had the taste to leave it alone.

The departure from the long established style of using bolts only where there's no gear (at the point in general, but particularly at Windjammer Wall) is a separate but also regrettable abandonment of GOOD STYLE. I've done a couple of those bolted things that end in lower-offs in the middle of Windjammer (can't remember the names but they are just sport routes after all) and thought that you could remove 1/2 to 2/3rds of the bolts without them feeling any more sketchy than they are now, which is not sketchy at all since they are sport routes.
surfziggy
2-Dec-2014
10:40:47 AM
Yeah, but someone can always come and bolt an extension to it, if they think they can climb it.

Not saying trad doesn't have its place, but bolts make climbing more accessible, safer and more fun to a lot of people. Feel free not too clip them however :-)

climberman
2-Dec-2014
11:08:09 AM
On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:

>Not saying trad doesn't have its place, but bolts make climbing more accessible,
>safer and more fun to a lot of people.

is this in and of itself a good thing? a desirable thing? a goal? WGAF if climbing is accessible?
uwhp510
2-Dec-2014
11:20:43 AM
On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>Yeah, but someone can always come and bolt an extension to it, if they
>think they can climb it.

Or they could top rope it, and leave the drill at home. These routes are all accessed from the top, so they can all be either top-roped or have all the gear pre-placed on abseil if the leaders don't feel up to placing the gear on lead.

>Not saying trad doesn't have its place,

Woah woah, easy there son... Climbing IS trad by default. Cliffs don't come with ring-bolts pre-installed which are removed by aspiring TRADITIONAL ascentionists! SPORT CLIMBING is the sub-activity.

>but bolts make climbing more accessible,
>safer and more fun to a lot of people.

So does chipping.

>Feel free not too clip them however
>:-)

I hereby propose a new rule of the internet whereby anyone who attempts to justify retro-bolting type activities with a statement to the effect of "you can choose not to clip them" immediately looses the argument. It's akin to arguing in favour of luxury resort developments in pristine wilderness areas with the statement "you can choose not to stay there". The existence of the bolt/luxury resort fundamentally changes the experience of climbing the route/visiting the wilderness area, whether or not the bolt/luxury resort is directly interacted with.

Big G
2-Dec-2014
11:28:32 AM
On 2/12/2014 uwhp510 wrote:

>
>>Not saying trad doesn't have its place,
>
>Woah woah, easy there son... Climbing IS trad by default. Cliffs don't
>come with ring-bolts pre-installed which are removed by aspiring TRADITIONAL
>ascentionists! SPORT CLIMBING is the sub-activity.
>
Actually climbing began as 'getting up by any means'. Aid is closer to the original forms of climbing than 'trad' - trad is a very new idea in the grand scheme of things

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2-Dec-2014
12:03:39 PM
On 2/12/2014 Big G wrote:
>Actually climbing began as 'getting up by any means'.
>Aid is closer to the original forms of climbing than 'trad' - trad is a very new idea in the grand scheme of things

If you look at early climbing history, aid (in the sense we know it today), was (for the most part) only used sparingly, and only then when free climbing wasn't possible to the technique of the day.
This was mostly due to time constraints as aid is hard work and slow, and the major objective was to get to the summit...



On 2/12/2014 uwhp510 wrote:
>On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>>Feel free not too clip them however
>>:-)
>
>I hereby propose a new rule of the internet whereby anyone who attempts
>to justify retro-bolting type activities with a statement to the effect
>of "you can choose not to clip them" immediately looses the argument.
>It's akin to arguing in favour of luxury resort developments in pristine
>wilderness areas with the statement "you can choose not to stay there".
> The existence of the bolt/luxury resort fundamentally changes the experience
>of climbing the route/visiting the wilderness area, whether or not the
>bolt/luxury resort is directly interacted with.

+1
(Though I am not convinced it wasn't a surfziggy troll statement).

... or akin to mining or logging pristine wilderness / one can choose not to look...
surfziggy
2-Dec-2014
12:16:14 PM
>but bolts make climbing more accessible,
>safer and more fun to a lot of people.

>So does chipping.

Chipping doesn't make it more fun, it might make it more easier. But I'm not advocating chipping.


>Or they could top rope it, and leave the drill at home. These routes are all accessed from the top, so they can all be either top-roped or have all the gear pre-placed on abseil if the leaders don't feel up to placing the gear on lead.

Haven't most of them got carrots anyway? I don't see the difference between a carrot and a properly installed ring bolt. Apart from one is a faff to put a hanger on when you're pumped. Surely the Rb is just a better mousetrap.

surfziggy
2-Dec-2014
12:27:43 PM
Not too mention what happens to the trees at the top of most popular trad climbing areas. And the fact that our love of the cliffs generally has other environmental impacts like erosion. So by keeping people off the clifftop, you could argue that Sport climbing is less impactful.

shortman
2-Dec-2014
12:52:04 PM
On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>Not too mention what happens to the trees at the top of most popular trad
>climbing areas. And the fact that our love of the cliffs generally has
>other environmental impacts like erosion. So by keeping people off the
>clifftop, you could argue that Sport climbing is less impactful.

How do you keep people from the top of PP?
climberman
2-Dec-2014
1:02:12 PM
On 2/12/2014 shortman wrote:

>How do you keep people from the top of PP?

Pfffttt, idiot. You close the access at the gate with the nice Navy man in it!

surfziggy, being a surfer, drives to Culburra and paddles around, doing true 'ocean up' ascents of every route.
uwhp510
2-Dec-2014
1:13:48 PM
On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>Chipping doesn't make it more fun, it might make it more easier.

It does if you can't do the moves. A grade 20 climber won't have much fun on a 27, whereas if you chip it back to 19...

>But I'm
>not advocating chipping.

Only because you're selectively applying the logic in your own arguments.

>Haven't most of them got carrots anyway?

Que? We're talking about the new sport routes, which didn't have any fixed gear until they were bolted. Some of the old routes have carrots, some have FHs but the key is that they (mostly) only have bolts where there aren't other gear options. The new sport routes are completely bolted, ignoring the many gear options along the way.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2-Dec-2014
1:16:15 PM
On 2/12/2014 climberman wrote:
>On 2/12/2014 shortman wrote:
>
>>How do you keep people from the top of PP?
>
>Pfffttt, idiot. You close the access at the gate with the nice Navy man
>in it!
>
>surfziggy, being a surfer, drives to Culburra and paddles around, doing true 'ocean up' ascents of every route, but doesn't top out, and hence has never seen the magical trees flourishing (but in danger from climbers), at the fabled summit plateau there.

fixedthatforyacm?
;-)
surfziggy
2-Dec-2014
1:44:45 PM
You don't, but I also can't see a huge ethical difference between a few carrots and a line of ring bolts. I'm not sure we can claim ownership of a line even if we were the FA. Off course it would be pretty rude to go and bolt someone elses line that had a history of being climbed just on gear. But there's plenty of examples of times when the FA gave permission or retro-bolted it themselves.

For these reasons, I personally can't see a big deal with someone putting up a new line on bolts next to a trad route. And if you're going to place any kind of bolts, it might as well be good ones and ones that properly protect the climb.

People climb for all sorts of reasons and have different risk tolerances, it's all good. you don't need to be scaring yourself stupid or risking your life to enjoy it.

The other point that's worth considering is that by placing bolts and ensuring they are up to a high standard within our own community, aren't we're seen to be managing the risks more comprehensively? And isn't this more likely contribute towards continued access to these great spots?
surfziggy
2-Dec-2014
1:49:27 PM
>It does if you can't do the moves. A grade 20 climber won't have much fun on a 27, whereas if you chip it back to 19...

There's more fun in trying something hard that you can't do yet I reckon.

>But I'm
>not advocating chipping.

>Only because you're selectively applying the logic in your own arguments.

Right back at ya. You brought up chipping not me. The only chips I like are with fish.

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There are 57 messages in this topic.

 

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