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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 66
Author
Leading abseiler falls unconscious. What to do?
PDRM
14/08/2014
4:41:05 PM
On 14/08/2014 Macciza wrote:
>Down prusiking can be pretty easy when done tree style -
>essentially just sliding down with a bit of friction, feet crossed on
>rope might help

It's actually a bastard unless the route is overhanging. Much skin will be lost...

P
PDRM
14/08/2014
4:45:29 PM
I think the reality unfortunately is that there's not going to be one 'right way' to do this. You 'just' need to have practiced a sufficient number of techniques to be able to improvise as the situation (and the gear you have on hand - and the strength you have - and the conditions - etc.) permit. As others have said, if those externalities are against you, you may well be buggered.

P
JimmyJimJam
14/08/2014
5:04:56 PM
Fair enough P. I'm just trying to collate a significant number of techniques, so I can improvise if this situation was to occur.
patto
14/08/2014
5:32:08 PM
On 14/08/2014 JimmyJimJam wrote:
>Fair enough P. I'm just trying to collate a significant number of techniques,
>so I can improvise if this situation was to occur.

The best thing is to ensure such situations don't occur. It is best to have contingency anchors with releasable abseils if the terrain is risky.

First person down rappels on a single line releasable anchor with an autoblock if they desire it. The rest rappel down without an autoblock and are backed up by the first person down.
martym
14/08/2014
7:27:31 PM
I once tried to Prusik ground up on two fully extended double ropes, 60m, with the joiner knot trapped on a ledge.
After about 15mins of shunting the hitch up and down and not leaving the ground I gave up, and we got another rope and reclimbed the route.

Stugang
14/08/2014
8:30:50 PM
Out of respect for the chockstone community I have refrained on commenting on this thread.
Wendy
14/08/2014
10:45:31 PM
I think the solution is not to go climbing with people who randomly faint on the way down.

Really, in what circumstances do you expect your climber to conveniently end up unconscious rapping down a nice little 2 pitch route?
martym
14/08/2014
10:54:35 PM
Jimjams, I think this web page will satisfy your curiosity for now:

http://www.compasswest.co.uk/articles/abseiling-safety/index.html

Scenario one is an unconscious belayer due to rock fall.. I didn't read he rest but you can let us know if it answers your questions ;)

ajfclark
15/08/2014
8:46:48 AM
On 14/08/2014 JimmyJimJam wrote:
>Ok. Enough fun and games. Let's forget the whole winter foehn on the Eiger,
>partner's bleeding from the ears and you've dropped your gloves.
>Let's just say your partner's halfway down the rap on a two pitch route.
>What would be the easiest, quickest, and safest method to get both you
>and your partner down?
>After prusiking down, how would you?
>1. Get past your partner? Particularly if they have extended their belay
>device with a sling. And for arguments sake we'll say it's overhanging.

You get to their belay device, given that you don't really want to be completely dependant on one prusik, you attach your third prusik loop under the belay device, transfer your weight and continue.

>2. Lower yourself and your partner? Clip into their belay, or, rap down
>and fireman, or...?

While I'm on my way past, I'd use a sling to attach into their belay carabiner. Depends on how far they've extended themselves, etc as to the length I'd use. I'd eventually want to end up hanging off their belay device with my body just under theirs. Rig a chesty for them. Keep down prusiking until my weight is on their belay device, not my prusiks.

From there I'd take over the control of the descent, probably adding my own backup and removing theirs so it's easier for me to control. I'd rotate them across my lap so I could use my legs to keep them out from the cliff.

>3. Having built a new anchor. Lower them onto the new anchor?
>And 4. Continue safely to the ground?

No new anchor, just continue.

>I might add that I have done a course with ASM but we never covered this
>particular scenario. So I was curious to see how others would deal with
>it.

>I might also add another question.
>What if up was the only way? Say its a sea cliff or the cars at the top,
>and you were rapping down just to climb back up.
>Can you haul without a rescue rope? My course covered mainly crevasse
>rescue in which case you'd be carrying coils.

If I was at the top of a rap access cliff, I'd probably go look for help first as more people and more gear would be helpful (like someone rap in on another line, check the patient, rig a chest harness, lock off their belay properly or attach them to a dedicated haul line or something while the others rig the haul).

It would also depend what gear I had. A cordelette and some slings, prusiks, etc could be used to rig a progress capture and a hauling system onto the rap rope. It's going to suck though, especially if there's a 90 degree edge or something and you're by yourself.
maxdacat
15/08/2014
9:03:22 AM
dead and unconscious bodies are a real pain to move around - err allegedly.

ajfclark
15/08/2014
9:38:23 AM
On 15/08/2014 maxdacat wrote:
>dead and unconscious bodies are a real pain to move around - err allegedly.

Just don't ask siri for help and you'll be right.
kieranl
15/08/2014
9:42:44 AM
As ajfclark says hauling your partner by yourself is going to suck. It would be hard enough with pulleys but with the inefficiencies of using krabs in lieu of pulleys it will be desperate. Maybe if you only had to get them up a couple of metres to a ledge...

But this isn't just a technical exercise, it's primarily a medical emergency. Why is your partner unconscious? Did they get hit by a rock or is it a medical condition? What's your best course of action to make them safe and get medical attention as fast as possible? If you have mobile reception or an epirb make the call before doing anything else. Don't wait to get down to your partner before calling it in - they're unconscious, it's an emergency.

Whatever you propose to do, you are still going to have to get down to them first to try to make sure they don't die or exacerbate spinal injuries during the rescue process (but make sure you aren't going to die doing this). If they've been hit on the head by a rock you should improvise a cervical collar.

Once you've done what you can, then see about trying to move them to the first safe place. Whether that's all the way to the ground or to the nearest ledge they can be secured to is a judgement call. The rule is to move the patient only as much as is required to make them safe until medical help arrives and that is totally dependent on circumstances.

Dave_S
15/08/2014
10:05:26 AM
On 14/08/2014 Wendy wrote:
>
>Really, in what circumstances do you expect your climber to conveniently
>end up unconscious rapping down a nice little 2 pitch route?

Rockfall?
widewetandslippery
15/08/2014
10:43:39 AM
Put a prusik on the strand of the rope without the knot (if there is a knot).

Run that loop back through a seperate biner on th anchor.

Have another prusik ready to anchor some slack.

Stand in a sling on the first prusik and bounce like life depends on it. Use second prusik to hold slack gained. Repeat.

You now have enough slack to tie of the injured person on one strand of rope and have slack to descend to them to see whats going on and maybe secure them to the cliff.

Reascend rope. Untie knot. Descend and keep descending with the injured. This method will not work if they are a lot heavier than you and/or you dont have enough gear to engage a more efficient pulley system.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/08/2014
11:24:16 AM
On 15/08/2014 widewetandslippery wrote:
>Put a prusik on the strand of the rope without the knot (if there is a
>knot).
>
>Run that loop back through a seperate biner on th anchor.
>
>Have another prusik ready to anchor some slack.
>
>Stand in a sling on the first prusik and bounce like life depends on it.
>Use second prusik to hold slack gained. Repeat.
>
>You now have enough slack to tie of the injured person on one strand of
>rope and have slack to descend to them to see whats going on and maybe
>secure them to the cliff.
>
>Reascend rope. Untie knot. Descend and keep descending with the injured.
>This method will not work if they are a lot heavier than you and/or you
>dont have enough gear to engage a more efficient pulley system.


What if they are descending on gossamer cord attached with a no-knot retrieval system?
Heh, heh, heh.
Wendy
15/08/2014
12:18:48 PM
On 15/08/2014 Dave_S wrote:
>On 14/08/2014 Wendy wrote:
>>
>>Really, in what circumstances do you expect your climber to conveniently
>>end up unconscious rapping down a nice little 2 pitch route?
>
>Rockfall?

I'm going to make an ass of u and me and suggest that if you thought the conditions were safe enough to not be wearing a helmet, you probably are also not using a back up and therefore will be splattered on the ground not hanging unconscious on the rope. My point is that this is a very rare event that is never likely to occur, but if it did, would probably happen in varying far more difficult circumstances than a friendly 2 pitch route, as people earlier have suggested. Far more likely to occur is a conscious but stuck abseiler - hair or clothing in belay device, rope caught or tangled, abseilled into middle of nowhere. And even then, those things should be largely avoidable or self rescuable.
widewetandslippery
15/08/2014
12:26:25 PM
On 15/08/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 15/08/2014 widewetandslippery wrote:
>>Put a prusik on the strand of the rope without the knot (if there is
>a
>>knot).
>>
>>Run that loop back through a seperate biner on th anchor.
>>
>>Have another prusik ready to anchor some slack.
>>
>>Stand in a sling on the first prusik and bounce like life depends on
>it.
>>Use second prusik to hold slack gained. Repeat.
>>
>>You now have enough slack to tie of the injured person on one strand
>of
>>rope and have slack to descend to them to see whats going on and maybe
>>secure them to the cliff.
>>
>>Reascend rope. Untie knot. Descend and keep descending with the injured.
>>This method will not work if they are a lot heavier than you and/or you
>>dont have enough gear to engage a more efficient pulley system.
>
>
>What if they are descending on gossamer cord attached with a no-knot retrieval system?
>Heh, heh, heh.
You dont phuck up in those situations.
martym
15/08/2014
4:22:24 PM
I know it's a bit late in the piece - but have you per chance tried the "Search" function yet?

The Stuck Leader Scenario

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Haul.htm

&


Harness Hang Syndrome

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/08/2014
5:08:17 PM
On 15/08/2014 martym wrote:
>I know it's a bit late in the piece - but have you per chance tried the "Search" function yet?

>The Stuck Leader Scenario

>http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Haul.htm

>&

>
Harness Hang Syndrome

... ~> if you keep this up I shall have to bequeath you the mantle of Chockypost-linker when I drop off this lifetime's route...
Heh, heh, heh.

In the meantime, as a quick reading of this thread, kieranl, WW&S and ajf's posts, seem like good value responses to me.
JimmyJimJam
15/08/2014
5:44:47 PM
I might be largely out of place here, being new to the forum, but honestly Wendy, someone could quite easily be rendered unconscious by rockfall, a wayward swing off an overhang, or any number of unlikely but possible scenarios, even having taken the precautions of putting on their helmet and tying their auto block. And, when a loose rock comes hurtling at your head it makes no difference whether your on a big wall or a measly two pitch route. I know I amped up the stakes in the beginning but if you have no useful advice other than "avoidable or self rescuable" I'll invite you to butt out.
Everyone else, I think I have the information I need to approach the situation if it were ever to arise. But as knowledge is the key to success, experience is the lock, so keep em coming.
Thanks.
James.

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There are 66 messages in this topic.

 

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