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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 57
Author
Vic/NSW big wall

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/06/2014
9:38:15 PM
On 20/06/2014 Ithomas wrote:
>It may be easy but can be dangerous. And if its a little damp - well.

~> This sums up climbing (generally) in the 'Bungles teen grades.
As an aside; someone mentioned Out & Beyond earlier. In the scheme of seriousness, especially for a new to the 'Bungles adventurer, I would recommend Bastion Buttress ahead of Out and Beyond, if I thought there was any doubt about the parties ability to complete the route in reasonable time.

>The point of John's post and my comment was
(snip, as there is no grade argument coming from me!),
>emphasise the seriousness of our premier big wall climbing area.

We agree!



stugang
20/06/2014
9:52:40 PM
On 20/06/2014 Wendy wrote:
> and so forth. They can then make an informed decision as to whether
>that is what they are up for.

That is such an un Aussie attitude. shame on you.


E. Wells
20/06/2014
10:28:26 PM
From memory Bastion Butress was most difficult to navigate first pitch then not too bad , someone mentioned 'old guides' earlier...well a few weeks ago a friend and I went to do Neruda and made the mistake of referring to three separate guides which stated Ginsberg as starting '15mtrs R of nose' So I lead up two pitches of utter death being sucked into this giant water washed rotten void for 60mtrs before we could get back into some resemblance of climbing. This took some time.
Apon completing the climb and getting back to Balor we looked at my partners old illustrated guide with original description and sure enough , it says start 15mtrs L of nose'......not 'R' as all subsequent guides seem to say....so nobody go knocking 'old guides' they may use imperial measurements but they might just tell the truth!!!
ithomas
20/06/2014
11:16:04 PM
Yes M9, I think we are in furious agreement.
timbigot
21/06/2014
9:02:59 PM
The general rule for Bungles seems to me was the bits that looked easy ie the slabby bits were the hard bits and the intimidating overlap/overhangs were the easy bits. At least this holds true for the moderates. Route finding is extremely challenging and at least from the ancient guide i used make all ascents like a first.
Wendy
22/06/2014
10:37:44 AM
The thing with old guides is they were written to different expectations and in a different era. They don't have digitial photo topos. They are often more scant on detail. Routes may not have had that many ascents to clarify details. Major factors impacting access, descent and route finding could have changed. Grading was just as subjective as ever, and also related to the skills and styles people were comfortable with at the time, as well as where that grade was in the progression of grades at the time.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22/06/2014
11:47:10 AM
On 22/06/2014 Wendy wrote:
>The thing with old guides is they were written to different expectations
>and in a different era. They don't have digitial photo topos. They are
>often more scant on detail. Routes may not have had that many ascents to
>clarify details. Major factors impacting access, descent and route finding
>could have changed. Grading was just as subjective as ever, and also related
>to the skills and styles people were comfortable with at the time, as well
>as where that grade was in the progression of grades at the time.
>

Yes.
~> ... but although technology within climbing has changed (including Climbing Guides), the art of adventure, and dare I say it, the 'seriousness' within that art-form hasn't as much.

The thing I like most about the Warrumbungle's is that it has retained it's adventure component.
If this was an indirect spinoff of perpetuation of 'vague' guides, then viva la difference!

I doubt that I am alone in this thinking, as witnessed by the furor that the relatively recent 'dumbing down' (9 pages of goodness follow!), of retreat options off Cornerstone Rib & Lieben (since 'rectified' for CR at least), as discussed on this site, testifies too.

kuu
22/06/2014
3:26:35 PM
On 21/06/2014 timbigot wrote:
>The general rule for Bungles seems to me was the bits that looked easy
>ie the slabby bits were the hard bits and the intimidating overlap/overhangs
>were the easy bits. At least this holds true for the moderates. Route finding
>is extremely challenging and at least from the ancient guide i used make
>all ascents like a first.

(snip)
" the ancient guide i used make all ascents like a first."
(/snip)

I hope you consider that a plus and that you were able to enjoy some of the uncertainty, joy of exploration, and ultimately the satisfaction on top-out, that the FA party experienced.

The constant prospect that you may get off route and need to reverse part of a pitch, or even retreat fully, make eventual success all the more worthwhile.




Rocksinmyhead
22/06/2014
7:48:38 PM
On 20/06/2014 Ithomas wrote:
> It is important not to asume that climbers are smart or competent
>and to asume that on big lonely cliffs, shit can happen.

And then:
>A smart climber would probably not do Bastion Buttress at all

Well, the old Colvyn Rock guide (which is the most recent and/or popular print guide that I know of) describes it as a "classic", the Crag as " a great line and a good introduction to the Bluff", and the SRC online guide describes it as an "an alpine warm up ... an easy classic". So, how's a "smart" climber wanting to start climbing on Bluff mountain, without other info, going to come to that decision?

I agree Bastion can get serious if you get off route - I did ( went to far right near the top I think) and enjoyed the most sphincter tightening pitch of climbing I'd done at that point. It was way harder than the crux lower pitches, or anything on Cornerstone. But that was part of the fun, and certainly more memorable for it.

RichA, the bungles has some great climbing (e.g cornerstone), and soloing the ~2km yulindinda traverse at kaputar is one the best climbing experiences I've had, but it's a long way from Mansfield. I'd suggest thinking of them as part of a long road trip, and dropping in at the bluies on the way. If you're comfortable leading long climbs(200m+) and can solidly climb bolted 18's, add Bunny bucket to the list. And given your original question, you may want to look at the long ridges on mt Barney in queensland - I haven't done any, but they're only another 500km (read 5+ hours) past kaputar! Do this all (except bunny bucket) well before summer.
Wendy
22/06/2014
8:09:16 PM
The lovely Hero lent me his very old Armidale guide today. For those who haven't had the pleasure of working from an old guidebook before, this is a typical topo.



This apparently covers an area larger than Frog. If I actually manage to find anything, I'll let you know if it was worth it.
Ithomas
22/06/2014
8:38:20 PM
A smart climber would think a bit laterally. Fill up on the grade 12 to 17 classics on the other Bungles peaks and then launch onto Elijah or maybe even Flight of the Phoenix and see what happens. An even smarter climber would team up with a more experienced climber and serve a very quick apprenticeship.
To my mind Bastion Buttress is the least appealing easy climb on any of the major peaks, but others clearly have different opinions.

The guides you mentioned didn't exist when I last climbed in the Warrumbungles so I have no opinion at all about their content.
A few scant descriptions in the BRC's magazine (RURP - The Realised Ultimate Reality Publication) of 1968 and 1969 were helpful - sort of. I can't recall when Joe Friends guide was published but it wasn't received very warmly even though the concept and the layout seemed excellent.

Rocksinmyhead
22/06/2014
9:17:05 PM
On 22/06/2014 Ithomas wrote:
>A smart climber would think a bit laterally. Fill up on the grade 12 to
>17 classics on the other Bungles peaks and then launch onto Elijah or maybe
>even Flight of the Phoenix and see what happens.

Bastion is considered to be a grade 12-17 classic. Why wouldn't they "fill up" on it? Elijah and FotP are about 100m longer and 5 grades harder. Are you saying someone new to bluff mountain would likely get into less trouble on either of these than Bastion? Interesting - why?

>An even smarter climber would team up with a more experienced climber and serve a very quick apprenticeship.

But not everyone has the opportunity, or wants to climb this way. They may prefer to extend their boundaries with good partners of similar ability and experience. It's not dumber, just different.
Ithomas
22/06/2014
10:04:07 PM
This is where everyone can have an valid opinion. I think that there are lots of climbs in the park that are better than Bastion Buttress. I didn't say that anyone who wanted to climb Bastion is dumb. I merely hinted that there are better ways to spend a day.

BB was certainly a welcome addition to the established routes on the mountain but in my opinion it is not a classic or even particularly good. Take that or leave it. It is possible to climb heaps of other routes and then jump onto Bluff Mt without doing BB. If you did Out and Beyond, Cornerstone and one or two others including Lieben, you should be capable of having a fling at Elijah.
Lots of people have built up in this way. If you want to climb BB go ahead and have a good time.

E. Wells
23/06/2014
6:36:56 AM
Building up to the high teens is definately advisable!! I had done Flight and Lieben and Caucasus but then 'Neruda' made them look like casual strolls, maybe my head (and all other bits attached') just wasnt there on the day. Im typically completely knackered just getting to the base of Bluff Mountain anyhow. Elijah is next.
timbigot
23/06/2014
7:02:29 AM
On 22/06/2014 kuu wrote:
>On 21/06/2014 timbigot wrote:
> Route
>finding
>>is extremely challenging and at least from the ancient guide i used make
>>all ascents like a first.
>
>(snip)
>" the ancient guide i used make all ascents like a first."
>(/snip)
>
>I hope you consider that a plus and that you were able to enjoy some of
>the uncertainty, joy of exploration, and ultimately the satisfaction on
>top-out, that the FA party experienced.
>
>The constant prospect that you may get off route and need to reverse part
>of a pitch, or even retreat fully, make eventual success all the more worthwhile.
>
For sure, that was definitely part of the charm of the area. I'm pretty sure I was off route much of the time and came to no harm.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/06/2014
12:07:21 PM
On the subject of old 'Bungles guides.

There is an old publication called The Rock-climbs Of NSW, compiled by members of the Sydney Rockclimbing Club, dated 1963, with prologue by Russ Kippax, and Introduction by Bryden Allen, that has 'Bungles info as Chapter 9 (pages 83-103).

The topo's in it are actually pretty good, and appear to have been hand drawn in landscape-artistic format.
The climb grades are the old English adjectival system.
~> ... and it contains some quirky facts like;
"For those that feel like flashing around the five pinnacles, The Bread Knife, Crater Bluff, Belougeries, The Needle and Tonduron have been climbed in a day, 6.30 am to 5.30 pm. One other point - if arrival and departure at Pincham is done in the hours of darkness parking fees may be avoided*."

(* ... Gotta love how climber-anarchy goes back to our historic roots! Heh, heh, heh.)

The Sydney Rockclimbing Club Warrumbungles Guide came out in 1973, and as pointed out by Andrew Pavey within it, followed on from Thrutch's publications and research for it commenced around 1969.

The Joe Friend 'Bungles Guide came out in 1976.

The Mark Colyvan 'Bungles Guide came out in 1994.




Hmm. Old Guides.
On the same flavour, my current project is trawling through an early Mt Buffalo Guide, to specifically extract Aid-climb-data, in order to compile a document that not only preserves the history of that genre, but facilitates furthering it, along with the grading debates associated with it...
~> It will make it to Chocky sometime, but is shaping up to be a bit like the rumours of simey starting a cafe in terms of timeframe, ... which ironically is not out of character when it comes to aid.
Heh, heh, heh.

gnaguts
21/09/2014
2:45:39 PM
On 22/06/2014 kuu wrote:
>On 21/06/2014 timbigot wrote:
>>The general rule for Bungles seems to me was the bits that looked easy
>>ie the slabby bits were the hard bits and the intimidating overlap/overhangs
>>were the easy bits. At least this holds true for the moderates. Route
>finding
>>is extremely challenging and at least from the ancient guide i used make
>>all ascents like a first.
>
>(snip)
>" the ancient guide i used make all ascents like a first."
>(/snip)
>
>I hope you consider that a plus and that you were able to enjoy some of
>the uncertainty, joy of exploration, and ultimately the satisfaction on
>top-out, that the FA party experienced.
>
>The constant prospect that you may get off route and need to reverse part
>of a pitch, or even retreat fully, make eventual success all the more worthwhile.
>
Ay old timer, I am sure you have seen the continuing rise in popularity of convenience climbing in the recent decade. Why would you suppose this is?
There is no fun or grade points involved in getting off route and retreating.
First Scent party thinking with great relief, thank f--- that is over, isn't the same thing as satisfaction, unless they were into machoism, in which case why didn't tight leather harnesses ever get a guernsey?

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There are 57 messages in this topic.

 

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