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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 87
Author
Abseiling tips, tricks, habits and advice
gfdonc
30/05/2014
1:24:20 PM
I do similar and encourage my partners to do the same .. er um without the firemans though.

i.e. hold both ropes but only feed one rope for the first 2-3m until the knot has cleared the edge.

Hence have almost never got the rope stuck, one glaring exception being the Mirrorball rap where the knot can glide into a crack a few metres down .. and no an overhand wouldn't have saved me.
ST
Olbert
30/05/2014
5:52:36 PM
Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.

I'm curious because when I got used to tying a bowline as a tie in, I very occasionally used a figure 8. When it came to tie in, I left the single 8 on the rope and started pulling on at least two separate occasions. Luckily both times I realised whilst the rope was still in reach - albeit with some jumping.
mikllaw
30/05/2014
6:40:32 PM
On 30/05/2014 martym wrote:
>If it looks like the rope could snag - eg. Mirror Ball Rap - I go down
>last & have the first person hold the ropes, then I slide some of the "unknoted"
>rope side through the belay while holding firm on the "pull" rope.

I find it easier to rap normally except that the rope below the knot is wrapped once around my leg, letting the other rope slide till the knot is over the edge

Miguel75
30/05/2014
7:22:30 PM
On 30/05/2014 Olbert wrote:
>Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This
>could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.

I, along with my brother and another buddy, pulled a rope with the knot still tied in one end. We were rapping off the double rap in the middle of the Nth Jawbones and I realised the knot was still tied after the knot had been pulled approx 12m above the Traverse of the Gods. The climbing up to the knot was pretty easy though gear was very sparse....
Ron McD
30/05/2014
7:58:55 PM
I once pulled the rope up with a knot in in on Mt Torment, right in a consistent avalanche path and the rope was in a waterfall, it was high ball nasty climbing in water, close to death. Then about ten seconds after we left an ice Avalanche came down and obliterated the place.

true story.
One Day Hero
2/06/2014
5:40:30 PM
On 30/05/2014 Olbert wrote:
>Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This
>could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.
>
Just tie both ends together in a single overhand knot, that way if you forget to untie it you can always pull the other end to get the knot back to you.

Rapping off the end of the ropes kills lots of climbers, I don't really understand the arguments against knotting the ends together.
kieranl
2/06/2014
7:45:38 PM
On 2/06/2014 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 30/05/2014 Olbert wrote:
>>Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This
>>could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.
>>
>Just tie both ends together in a single overhand knot, that way if you
>forget to untie it you can always pull the other end to get the knot back
>to you.
>
>Rapping off the end of the ropes kills lots of climbers, I don't really
>understand the arguments against knotting the ends together.

I'm totally with ODH on the risks here. I hate having the rope ends knotted together because they kink so badly on long raps so I knot each tail separately. Neither option is a free lunch but pick a method and use it.

sbm
3/06/2014
12:41:00 AM
On 30/05/2014 Olbert wrote:
>Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This
>could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.
>

I've done this actually. On the Empress Canyon final abseil. Actually we did it at night and I was floating on my back in freezing canyon water in the dark so I was a bit distracted. I untied the first end into a fig 8 that I clipped into my harness so I didn't drop the rope into the pool, then forgot to until the other end.

We were resigned to leaving the rope and just coming back the next morning to get it. I gave it one big final tug for good measure and it came down! The commercial canyoners have put enormous rap rings at the way overbuilt anchor, I guess the knot was small enough to pull through.

I actually kept the video from that little trip http://vimeo.com/34394280 skip to 1 minute in.
DMWdesign
12/08/2014
11:13:47 AM
On 28/05/2014 citationx wrote:

>We're not really here to discuss that you find your method the best and
>everyone else's method is therefore somehow redundant/useless/dangerous.
>And regarding your knots in the end of the rope, similar thing - I tie
>knots in the end on really long raps and then when i am attached to the
>ground or the next anchor, I then untie it if needed. Again, it's not "wrong",
>(and it's hardly less efficient - how long does it take to tie two knots
>and untie them? 6 seconds?) it's just a different way of doing it, perhaps
>with more safety. (feel free to disagree it's more safe)

I have just pick-up on this interesting discussion re autoblocks and knots

Coincidently I tried an autoblock back-up for the first time the other day and found it worked very smooth & responsively on a free-hanging abseil - no body twisting, no jerking etc.
I found it more comfortable to have the autoblock as low as possible.
see photo


Having said that, I probably won't start using a back-up (in canyoning) as I like to have both hands 'free' whilst negotiating tricky overhangs, slots, chockstones, etc.
And if I had to choose, definitely not a back-up above the descender.

I may choose to use the autoblock backup on a long straightforward abseil if I was the first person down and where there was the potential of rock-fall.

re knots, never tied them as I am always monitoring where I am descending anyway and never abseil at night, But I agree, for safety sake it doesn't take long to tie/untie a couple of knots if it makes you feel more comfortable.

re these applications - it's all horses for courses
Pok
12/08/2014
4:57:11 PM
A - Anchor (Is it solid? Set up correctly? Retrievable?)
B - Backup (Am I using one? Is it holding? Does my belayer know I am on rope?)
C - Carabiner (Is it locked? Oriented right? Is it going to crossload?)
D - Device (Setup correctly? Threaded the right way around? Enough bars in?)
E - Everything Else (Helmet on, harness buckles doubled back, shoelaces tied, etc)
F - "F%#K I Hate Abseiling!!!"
jpo
26/08/2014
11:25:32 PM
Hi Pok.

How come you hate abseiling? Isn't climbing hairier?

Do climbers ever do abseiling just for the practise? I only do abseiling and I'd dread doing it under stress without having the techniques down pat thru practise under calm conditions.

ajfclark
27/08/2014
7:43:36 AM
On 26/08/2014 jpo wrote:
>Hi Pok.
>
>How come you hate abseiling? Isn't climbing hairier?

When climbing you don't have to trust your gear so much unless you fall off. It's all kind of theoretical until then.

Abseiling you have to place complete faith in the gear. It's also feet first rather than leading with your head so it's not as easy to see what's coming.

Being lowered off is worse as you have to trust both the gear and someone else.

>Do climbers ever do abseiling just for the practise? I only do abseiling and I'd dread doing it under stress without having the techniques down pat thru practise under calm conditions.

I'd guess the majority of the abseiling recreational climbers do is under calm, practise environment like, conditions.

Snacks
27/08/2014
10:16:32 AM
On 30/05/2014 Olbert wrote:
>Has anyone ever pulled their ropes with a knot still in the end? This
>could result in all manner of dodgyness depending on the situation.
>
>I'm curious because when I got used to tying a bowline as a tie in, I
>very occasionally used a figure 8. When it came to tie in, I left the
>single 8 on the rope and started pulling on at least two separate occasions.
> Luckily both times I realised whilst the rope was still in reach - albeit
>with some jumping.

Convinced Neil to jumar up on an FBK jammed into a ringbolt at Bentrovarto a while back. It was bomber...

But a single figure 8... that'd be interesting.
simey
27/08/2014
10:32:05 AM
On 12/08/2014 Pok wrote:
>A - Anchor (Is it solid? Set up correctly? Retrievable?)
>B - Backup (Am I using one? Is it holding? Does my belayer know I am on
>rope?)
>C - Carabiner (Is it locked? Oriented right? Is it going to crossload?)
>D - Device (Setup correctly? Threaded the right way around? Enough bars
>in?)
>E - Everything Else (Helmet on, harness buckles doubled back, shoelaces
>tied, etc)
>F - "F%#K I Hate Abseiling!!!"

As far as a teaching strategy to help you abseil safely, this 'A to F' concoction is a joke. Talk about a random set of elements to focus on. But then I suppose everything not covered under letters A to D goes under 'E for Everything else'?!

Ridiculous.





Snacks
27/08/2014
10:41:47 AM
On 27/08/2014 simey wrote:
>On 12/08/2014 Pok wrote:
>>A - Anchor (Is it solid? Set up correctly? Retrievable?)
>>B - Backup (Am I using one? Is it holding? Does my belayer know I am
>on
>>rope?)
>>C - Carabiner (Is it locked? Oriented right? Is it going to crossload?)
>>D - Device (Setup correctly? Threaded the right way around? Enough bars
>>in?)
>>E - Everything Else (Helmet on, harness buckles doubled back, shoelaces
>>tied, etc)
>>F - "F%#K I Hate Abseiling!!!"
>
>As far as a teaching strategy to help you abseil safely, this 'A to F'
>concoction is a joke. Talk about a random set of elements to focus on.
>But then I suppose everything not covered under letters A to D goes under
>'E for Everything else'?!
>
>Ridiculous.
>

Horses for courses. Pok is part of a University Club where you can have complete novices and having a system like that is good for instruction, especially in a large group...

But if the A to F is in order... having your helmet and buckles checked last is a bit of a no no...

shortman
27/08/2014
10:45:14 AM
On 12/08/2014 Pok wrote:
>A - Anchor (Is it solid? Set up correctly? Retrievable?)
>B - Backup (Am I using one? Is it holding? Does my belayer know I am on
>rope?)
>C - Carabiner (Is it locked? Oriented right? Is it going to crossload?)
>D - Device (Setup correctly? Threaded the right way around? Enough bars
>in?)
>E - Everything Else (Helmet on, harness buckles doubled back, shoelaces
>tied, etc)
>F - "F%#K I Hate Abseiling!!!"

What I'm wondering is what set of letters/rules Pok used when trying to get thru Mr Chicken...coz that was a farken disaster, :)

ajfclark
27/08/2014
10:46:12 AM
On 27/08/2014 simey wrote:
>As far as a teaching strategy to help you abseil safely, this 'A to F' concoction is a joke. Talk about a random set of elements to focus on. But then I suppose everything not covered under letters A to D goes under 'E for Everything else'?!
>
>Ridiculous.

I wonder if Archer would work better:

Anchor (Is the anchor good enough?)
Reaving (Is the rope through your belay device right? Through the anchor right?)
Carabiners (Locked, correct orientation, through both strands of rope?)
Harness (Buckle doubled back if appropriate, etc, )
Extra Equipment (Are you backing up with an additional prusik or something?)
Rope (Does the rope reach where you're going? Is it snagged in a tree? Knotted halfway down, etc)

Harness and Rope are notably missing from the ABCDEF thing (or covered by the E bit)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/08/2014
11:29:38 AM
>ABCDEF, ARCHER, EGBDF alltogethernow...
;-)

The main benefit of an acronym is to prompt a checking routine, but having a safe routine to start with is the important thing.

It may help some people to formally initiate that process, but really isn't necessary in and of itself, otherwise people will be tying themselves up in another form of bureaucratic red tape (particularly institutions), and if their memory relies more on that than common sense, then they would be safer not doing such dangerous activities.

A final check of components before committing need not be that formalised, as in my opinion most of the things covered by an acronym get done multiple times anyway, at least within experienced teams.
For example, not many set an anchor without considering the factors it needs to address and seeing that it meets the need/s at that time. To check it again by each abseiler is often superfluous.
Another example is that individuals check not only their own, but other team member set-ups.

Most of these things can be done simply/quickly/easily as a visual anyway, and probably the main benefit for the inexperienced is to develop having a safe routine to start with.

The most insidious danger that I have found, is being interrupted while at setting up stage. Any distraction at that point can easily lead to an oversight, and only then does the self/group checking process come into its own, and this is where each member of a party ultimately takes responsibility for themselves.

>What does E stand for again?
>Heh, heh, heh.
simey
27/08/2014
11:38:18 AM
On 27/08/2014 Snacks wrote:

>Horses for courses. Pok is part of a University Club where you can have
>complete novices and having a system like that is good for instruction,
>especially in a large group...

Good acronyms (such as the ABCD used in First Aid) are great, but too often people come up with really contrived ones which aren't very helpful at all.

How about a teaching/checking strategy where you simply follow the the abseil rope from the top (is the anchor good? is the abseil rope attached securely?) through to you (is abseil device, karabiner, prusik back-up and harness all attached properly?) and then follow the rope all the way to the ground (does it reach? are both ends even? does it need a knot?)


gnaguts
27/08/2014
12:56:09 PM
On 27/08/2014 ajfclark wrote:
>On 26/08/2014 jpo wrote:
>>Do climbers ever do abseiling just for the practise? I only do abseiling and I'd dread doing it under stress without having the techniques down pat thru practise under calm conditions.
>
>I'd guess the majority of the abseiling recreational climbers do is under calm, practise environment like, conditions.

Peeps die falling off chairs and ladders.
An abseiling accident can really ruin your calm conditions day.
It happens to often and it doesn't matter if you are a climber, a rapper, or a bushwhacka with a rope, as gravity evens em all out at the base.

>Abseiling tips, tricks, habits and advice
Abseiling. Can be dangerous.
Tip. Don't do it if the consequence of doing it wrong is too much for you.
Trick. Use enough friction after setting a safe anchor.
Habit. Have a good safe one, unlike many who belay indoors.
Advice. Pay attention to detail. simey's follow the rope check is a clear simple one to follow.

You can patent ATTHA if you like simey, unless you think it is ridiculous.

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There are 87 messages in this topic.

 

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