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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
Arapiles classics 20 years on in disrepair
asagaai
4/04/2014
9:03:57 PM
So- I had a recent visit to Arapiles some 20 years after living in the pines as a uni student, with my brother Wayne and friend Ravi, and was shocked to find classic routes in dire need of some TLC as follows:

1. Judgment Day- the bolt looks like a serious case of brewers droop, not sure which is more worrying. Bolt needs replacement asap.

2. Los Endos-the big flake on the initial wall after the hard pull over the lip- the one where your fingers get in deep for a de pump- is loose, and someone stuffed gobs of goo to hold the flake (size of a very large briefcase) on. Is going to pull off, especially if someone places a wire on it and it pulls- may even slice a rope/cut off a head to boot. Needs 2 very very long threaded bolts drilled through it and cemented in, with nuts and washer on the outside torqued to hold it on. This will properly preserve this fantastic classic.

3. Yesterday took my friend Ravi Pannell up to do Strangers Eliminate, as I had fond memories as a beginner shaking on lead past the mantleshelf with upside down wires/rps in a small seam on the mantleshelf providing marginal pro some 17 foot odd above a cam in the hole. Got up to the mantleshelf- to find the pro seam on the mantleshelf has been demolished, fresh white yellow sandstown evidencing the violent end of the darkly browned marble seam, obviously holding one to many falls. Its now a risk if doing the mantleshelf move, and you have too much rope/slow belayer then a ground fall is a real possibility.

This is a real shame as for a lot of middle grade climbers the only way to get up Tjuringa wall was by strangers eliminate. Now, it is very very bold, with injury a real possibility.

A way around this may be to place a bolt at the mantle, but some 3 foot odd?? below the mantle to try and preserve the edgy vibe that the original climb had with the upsideown sideways placed wires?

There really needs to be climbing consensus on this-because this classic is no longer in existence and we need to debate and reach consensus on how to remediate it to what it was as best we can, so future generations of young climbers can wobble up it and experience the trepidation of the mantle move.

Anyway-had a blast on this fantastic crag...wish it was located in NSW.

Gavin Jensen

martym
4/04/2014
9:50:33 PM
On 4/04/2014 asagaai wrote:
>Anyway-had a blast on this fantastic crag...wish it was located in NSW.

Now that John Howard's love child is in power - we may see the end of state governments proposed...
gfdonc
5/04/2014
11:12:51 AM
Yes Stranger's Eliminate is a challenging lead. I spent quite some time on that pedestal.

Never knew there used to be pro there - I tried to fiddle something in and gave up.

There's a small RP at your feet and a good large cam below that, so I don't think it has groundfall potential. I don't think retrobolting is going to gain consensus, but most people I know that have done the route would agree with you.

The good Dr
5/04/2014
12:05:35 PM
Hi Gavin. Good to hear you are still at it.

1. I can replace the carrot on Judgement Day with one of Wayne's classic carrots. Have a great one that came out of the start of his route Maniacal. It has a perfect 20 degree kink in it where is was inserted into the rock.

2. I thought you guys were pretty good with the old epoxy back in the day!! There are ways of pinning it to the wall that do not look like something from a major construction site.

3. Strangers Eliminate is fine. As Steve noted above there is adequate gear below.

Wendy
5/04/2014
12:19:25 PM
I think you might have just gotten on a few routes that are exciting for various reasons, and would have been so 20 years ago as well.

The bolt on Judgement day has been mank as long as I can remember (more than 20 years). There is gear before and after it, so you shouldn't die coming off it regardless and anyone making a reasonable judgement whilst leading it should realise it is not a piece to really rely on. Is the route more dangerous if the bolt wasn't there? I wouldn't bother replacing it.

Los Endos - I didn't realise that the flake has been glued back on as I decided having done it once 15 years or so ago that I didn't need to ever do it again. patch up jobs that involve visual lumps of goo are crap though. I guess climbing always involves holds that may or may not come off some day. There are bodgy rocks on all sorts of classics that seem to survive the passage of 1000s and people need to make their own judgements about trusting any particular bit of gear or rock as well. Someone other than me who cares about the route can contribute whether it is should stay fixed on or left to follow the course of nature.

Stranger's - was always a bloody exciting lead. I remember the old flake with the gear and it was pretty worthless anyway, as demonstrated by its discontinued existence. It has been gone for many years, maybe 10? I've already said before that I'm for adding another bolt, and I'd put it in the best place both clip and protect the route and bugger preserving the dodgy mantle above crap gear feeling.

In the general scheme of things, nothing really happens unless someone (like yourself) who notices these things actually decides to do something and endless circular debate is pretty much all that happens around here. So if you care enough, have thought it through and you honestly believe it's the best course of action, go and do it. Worst that can happen is you'll get bagged on here with the remote possiblity that someone actually decides to do something and remove them. Which is even less likely than anyone deciding to rebolt anything in the first place.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/04/2014
12:55:27 PM
On 5/04/2014 Wendy wrote:
>In the general scheme of things, nothing really happens unless someone
>(like yourself) who notices these things actually decides to do something
>and endless circular debate is pretty much all that happens around here.
>So if you care enough, have thought it through and you honestly believe
>it's the best course of action, go and do it. Worst that can happen is
>you'll get bagged on here with the remote possiblity that someone actually
>decides to do something and remove them. Which is even less likely than
>anyone deciding to rebolt anything in the first place.

Hmm. That logic is used by both camps on many issues.
Climbed at Mt Keira (or, insert many other spurt-bolted location names here), recently Wendy?
;-)
Asagaai
5/04/2014
1:02:46 PM
Hey good Dr.

Yes-slowly getting back to it, an 8 metre fall at the top of Thaiwand wall in Thailand when the only bolt between me and the belayer snapped when I sat on it scoping for the next bolt, slowed me up with crush fractures to T 11 and T12 vertebra. Wayne dragged me up Los Endos and Second Coming-Los Endos in the rain and I bitched at him all the way up.

1. Yes- must agree Wayne and my bolting back in the day was crap. We were poor uni students, used a hand drill with hammer- and the Arap rock was so hard. I got literally bloody hands putting in the top bolt on blast off- remember cursing and cursing the marble rock. I should take some time, get a bolt gun and re-do all the manky crap I put in.

2. Yes- I was responsible for the epoxy on brotherly love - a flake broke off on the start and I tried to epoxy it back on- did not work- left a araldite smear- which I regret. I was a poor uni student and wasted a lot of my Austudy allowance on that goo- tried to avoid wasting my Austudy again.... Now just has a hard finger pull off the ground without the flake and sans using a rock pedestal for aid. I still maintain the flake on Los Endos could be bolted in very neatly with 2 bolts and washers/nuts- it is a real safety issue in terms of hitting someone/cutting ropes etc.

3. Strangers Eliminate- I led that route a few times, the gear on the mantle would have held more likely than not (I always managed to get a couple of wires in) . If the rp below your feet rips (is small) and you rely on cam- will be a close call with deck. I still think it needs a bolt -placed some feet below mantle-to allow other younger climbers to test it safely and have the buzz safely. Perhaps if I do replace the old manky bolts on my routes I may place a carrot (not a ring bolt) on Strangers Eliminate a few feet below the mantle- and use proper grout, and I will be at peace knowing that fresh green climbers can have the buzz, on the basis that the climb provides "equivalent" protection as it did when it was in it's original form.

I will ethically be at peace with myself- will be up to others to chop it and be ethically at peace with their chopping.

Cheers

Gavin

Wendy
5/04/2014
1:36:24 PM
On 5/04/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 5/04/2014 Wendy wrote:
>>In the general scheme of things, nothing really happens unless someone
>>(like yourself) who notices these things actually decides to do something
>>and endless circular debate is pretty much all that happens around here.
>>So if you care enough, have thought it through and you honestly believe
>>it's the best course of action, go and do it. Worst that can happen is
>>you'll get bagged on here with the remote possiblity that someone actually
>>decides to do something and remove them. Which is even less likely than
>>anyone deciding to rebolt anything in the first place.
>
>Hmm. That logic is used by both camps on many issues.
>Climbed at Mt Keira (or, insert many other spurt-bolted location names
>here), recently Wendy?
>;-)

What other logic is there? If people don't notice, think, reach a conclusion they believe is ethical and take action, nothing reasonable will get done. If people bicker incessantly, nothing at all gets done, if they jump in and do something without reflection and research, something unnecessary/stupid/thoughtless gets done.

At the least, Gavin here has a history of climbing and is getting on solid trad stuff, he's not coming just out of sport climbing or gyms and wanting to create some clip ups and is putting some thought into why he thinks these routes are problematic.

Other options are also just increasing the level of warning in guidebooks, for those people who seem to struggle in making reasonable judgement calls on their lonesome. Although in the end I wish people would just take some bloody responsibility for their own decisions and the consequences.

Was this link on Chocky anywhere?

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/climbing-finally-safe-everyone

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/04/2014
3:51:47 PM
I am not disagreeing with you about action often needing to be taken, but pointing out the irony/logic that both sides of the coin often use identical justification for their actions/inaction.

It is great that asagaai has a considered approach based on a sound history, and is at least consulting a wider audience about proposed actions.

>Other options are also just increasing the level of warning in guidebooks, for those people who seem to struggle in making reasonable judgement calls on their lonesome. Although in the end I wish people would just take some bloody responsibility for their own decisions and the consequences.

People who 'don't get it', probably never will, and no amount of warnings written or otherwise will compensate for their decisions.
PS your wish list corresponds closely to mine!

You no doubt realise that the link you provided was a parody of many a current-perception...


One Day Hero
5/04/2014
4:06:39 PM
Don't bolt the bloody flake on Los Endos to the wall! If anyone is stupid enough to place gear behind it, the thing will rip anyway. I'm disappointed that it's had an ugly glue job done on it, that route deserves better. Also, don't replace the bolt on Judgement Day. It has always been crap (at least since I first did it 18 years ago). If anyone feels the need to do something, just pull it out. The climb is fine without the bolt, lots of other gear and lots of air beneath.
dalai
5/04/2014
6:36:53 PM
On 4/04/2014 asagaai wrote:
>So- I had a recent visit to Arapiles some 20 years after living in the
>pines as a uni student, with my brother Wayne and friend Ravi

There are some names from the long distant past. Hope they are both well?
kieranl
5/04/2014
10:20:15 PM
Bolt on Judgement Day has been crap ever since Baxter placed it. It isn't necessary and should go. (as should the old bolt on Eurydice). Bolts like this just encourages people who don't know better to rust them.
Stranger's does not need another bolt. That the crappy old placements have blown just shows how crappy they always were.
If the flake on Los Endos needs bolting to the wall then what it really needs a crowbar.

stugang
5/04/2014
10:58:03 PM
On 5/04/2014 kieranl wrote:
>Bolt on Judgement Day has been crap ever since Baxter placed it. It isn't
>necessary and should go. (as should the old bolt on Eurydice). Bolts like
>this just encourages people who don't know better to rust them.
>Stranger's does not need another bolt. That the crappy old placements
>have blown just shows how crappy they always were.
>If the flake on Los Endos needs bolting to the wall then what it really
>needs a crowbar.
>

well said kmonster. I think the OP should pause to think how a piece of rock can fall into disrepair. cliffs will die just as surely as we will, best not to pretend we can prevent the inevitable.
duglash
6/04/2014
7:09:09 PM
Aye, you as an instrument of death assegai should accept the formlessness of death, embrace the block, pull out on the Baxter bolt, jump off strangers'. Only then will you truly make a crunchy splattering noise.
asagaai
6/04/2014
8:36:54 PM
Hey Martin

Wayne and Ravi are both well- and yes-time does march along.

Regards

Gavin
asagaai
6/04/2014
8:43:41 PM
On 6/04/2014 duglash wrote:
>Aye, you as an instrument of death assegai should accept the formlessness
>of death, embrace the block, pull out on the Baxter bolt, jump off strangers'.
>Only then will you truly make a crunchy splattering noise.

:)


Gavin

There are 16 messages in this topic.

 

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