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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 191
Author
Vic Parks Camping Fee Proposal

ajfclark
28/10/2013
10:35:57 AM
On 28/10/2013 Wendy wrote:
>I think Catani is going to be in the $60 group. Catani has always been priced at about the same amount as a commercial campground. Except now it's nearly double.

Looking at table 3.3 on page 30, they use Mount Buffalo NP as one of three parks in the averaging of the Very High category but then oddly, table 4.4 then says there's only one Very High category campground.

Appendix C clears it up and lists Lake Catani as High. I wonder why they felt the need to average the parks like that.

Looking at the proposed fees on appendix G, high peak lists 6 people @ $48.70 which would be 4 people @ $32.47. Pretty farking close to the $31.40 I was charged so I guess some of the changes have already been implemented?
Wendy
28/10/2013
10:40:21 AM
Really? So somehow Stapylton et al are in the same category as Catani?????

ajfclark
28/10/2013
10:46:37 AM
Yes. From appendix C here's the Grampians campground service levels:

Bomjinna Campground Mid
Boreang Campground Mid
Borough Huts Campground Mid
Buandik Mid
First Wannon Remote Campground Basic/Very Basic Permit
Jimmy Creek Campground High
Plantation Campground High
Smiths Mill Campground High
Stapylton Campground High
Strachans Campground Mid
Troopers Creek Campground Mid
Wannan Crossing Campground Mid
Dispersed bush camping Basic/Very Basic Permit
Overnight walking Special Fee
pecheur
28/10/2013
10:50:34 AM
With those prices I'd be much more inclined to go to a caravan park, or perhaps the cabins, course what it probably means is that caravan park owners will up their prices because they can ...

BlankSlab
28/10/2013
11:12:36 AM
Being interstate and seeing these proposals would make me a lot less inclined to visit any of the parks and paying fees that high. Im sure im not the only one in the same boat.

I dont mind having to pay a bit here and there if there are facilities but i can undrstand paying such rates for places that have just a self composting toilet.

Is there a particular place to write to in response to this?
stingray4100
28/10/2013
11:15:52 AM
You can't actually 'book' a site at any of the grampians campgrounds now.

When I was up there at easter, the booking centre took my money and told me that there was no guarantees of actually getting a site at the campground that I wanted, but not to worry, there'll probably be a site somewhere in the park. An acceptable risk for the money I paid then, but if I'm paying $200 to stay a stapleton for 4 days then they better guarantee me a site.

Of course, this will end up as conflict on the ground at the campsite itself, where those that choose not to pay will occupy sites of those that have paid. Similar to the (not so) great otway walk. Rangers will be required to sort it out, and they'll probably have to employ more of them to do so and the fees will need to rise again.

Imagine being a ranger and trying to police this BS - I feel sorry for them.
kieranl
28/10/2013
11:25:25 AM
. "The level of payment compliance is assumed to be 60 per cent in year 1, increasing to 64 per cent in year five and then jumping to 80 per cent in year 6 and onwards when the Online System is assumed to be in place." Section 8.4 Compliance, p64.
An heroic assumption that the Online Booking System will increase compliance from long-term levels below 65% to 80% in one year.
Also damning if a very expensive booking system only adds 16% of value. And, from my limited 30+ years in IT I would have to say that any project that has a 5 year delivery schedule is doomed from the outset. It is not a Collins-class submarine that is being built, it is a booking system, there are stacks of them out there. The proposed cost and timeframe of this one just reeks of big IT consultancies designing and delivering bloatware.
Wendy
28/10/2013
11:28:09 AM
On 28/10/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>On 28/10/2013 Wendy wrote:
>>I think Catani is going to be in the $60 group. Catani has always been
>priced at about the same amount as a commercial campground. Except now
>it's nearly double.
>
>Looking at table 3.3 on page 30, they use Mount Buffalo NP as one of
>three parks in the averaging of the Very High category but then oddly,
>table 4.4 then says there's only one Very High category campground.
>
>Appendix C clears it up and lists Lake Catani as High. I wonder why they
>felt the need to average the parks like that.
>
>Looking at the proposed fees on appendix G, very high peak lists 6 people
>@ $48.70 which would be 4 people @ $32.47. Pretty farking close to the
>$31.40 I was charged so I guess some of the changes have already been implemented?

I think they are inconsistant within their own documents! I was looking at table 6 on page 6 of the summary document and it has high category sites with non powered sites at $48.70 for up to 6 people. there's no mention of a per person or 4 person rate. Very high, non power are $59.20 for up to 8 people.Mid ones are 37.80 for 6, with a per person rate of $19.30, meaning 2 people costs a whole 20c less than 6!

Copying and pasting the table isn't working, so you'd have to look it up, sorry.
http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/205519/Victorian-National-Parks-Camping-and-Accommodation-Fees-Regulatory-Impact-Statement-October-2013-Executive-Summary.pdf
Wendy
28/10/2013
11:32:54 AM
On 28/10/2013 Batey wrote:

>
>Is there a particular place to write to in response to this?

All documents and address to write to are here

http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/forestry-and-land-use/visiting-parks-and-forests/national-parks-camping-and-accommodation-fees

the email is

camping.RIS@depi.vic.gov.au

ajfclark
28/10/2013
12:04:30 PM
Sorry Wendy, I meant the high peak rate for 6 was 48.70 and then I scaled it to 4 people for comparison. Perhaps I should've compared the 6 person rates?

6 people at Lake Catani currently costs $45.40 a night during the peak period.

ajfclark
28/10/2013
12:06:46 PM
On 28/10/2013 kieranl wrote:
>. "The level of payment compliance is assumed to be 60 per cent in year
>1, increasing to 64 per cent in year five and then jumping to 80 per cent
>in year 6 and onwards when the Online System is assumed to be in place."
>Section 8.4 Compliance, p64.
>An heroic assumption that the Online Booking System will increase compliance
>from long-term levels below 65% to 80% in one year.
>Also damning if a very expensive booking system only adds 16% of value.
>And, from my limited 30+ years in IT I would have to say that any project
>that has a 5 year delivery schedule is doomed from the outset. It is not
>a Collins-class submarine that is being built, it is a booking system,
>there are stacks of them out there. The proposed cost and timeframe of
>this one just reeks of big IT consultancies designing and delivering bloatware.

They already have Park Stay too and it (for the most part) works.
kieranl
28/10/2013
12:08:47 PM
A really good comparison for the Grampians is the Happy Wanderer at Wartook. A non-powered site in peak period costs $28 per night. Flush toilets, hot showers and swimming pool and superb location. Or 48.70 for Stapylton for pit toilets and inadequate water supply.
kieranl
28/10/2013
12:11:10 PM
On 28/10/2013 ajfclark wrote:

>They already have Park Stay
>too and it (for the most part) works.
But how can the consultants get their snouts in the trough if they just fix that?
kieranl
28/10/2013
12:49:56 PM
This one's a real doozy, enjoy :

"The analysis conducted for this RIS assumes that the Online Booking System will be funded through increased fee revenue on the basis that the necessary capital to fund these costs upfront is not available, i.e. the Online Booking System is to be funded through saved revenue over the first five years, and therefore implemented in year six. The analysis includes an adjustment to expected revenue yield to account for improved payment compliance relative to the current level (80 per cent in year 6 and onwards when the Online Booking System is assumed to be in place)."

So, revenue yield cannot be maximised without an online booking system, which we can't afford so we'll fund it out of the revenue that we are going to save while we don't have a booking system to maximise the revenue which is going to pay for the booking system.
Serious points on the booking system :
How is the booking system going to improve compliance? An efficient booking system will make it easier to get a permit, but the people who won't buy a permit anyway still won't use it. The risk is that poor booking system will actually increase non-compliance as frustrated people give up on it. It's quite easy to spend money on a system that drives people away.
Compliance is essentially improved by a combination of education and enforcement with an emphasis on the former. If people value what they're using they are more likely to be prepared to pay for it (unsubstantiated personal opinion).
kieranl
28/10/2013
12:54:09 PM
As to not being able to afford a new booking system :
1. Can the current system be enhanced to fill the bill
2. If the system is going to increase revenue why not borrow to implement it? That's what businesses do and a government agency can borrow at really cheap rates. If borrowing isn't justified then the business case doesn't stack up.

ajfclark
28/10/2013
1:05:34 PM
Re online bookings and compliance,the major reasons I've heard from people for not paying for a site at Stapylton are:

1) I didn't know there were fees
2) I don't know how to pay them/I couldn't find anything online
3) I tried to pay but there's no phone reception at Stapylton and I'm not going to pay unless I know I have a site

The second one might be fixed by having a simple online booking system, but neither of the other two are. Whether having an online system would make those using excuse 2 pay or find a different excuse would be interesting.

nmonteith
28/10/2013
1:17:35 PM
The best system is just to have a campground 'host' who lives onsite and can come around and collect fees. That system works really well in USA campgrounds - and I always found the hosts were super friendly and full of useful info about the local area. I was very happy to pay after having a quick chat to them. They were usually older retiree aged couples in a a mega caravan.

ajfclark
28/10/2013
1:23:28 PM
They do that at Lake Catani over peak period. People volunteer and get to stay in the mega tent thing as payment.

I've had mostly good experiences with the camp hosts there except for one lady who drew written complaints from more than one group of campers. Generally they are friendly, knowledgeable about the park and they dole out firewood for a few dollars a bag which seems to help reduce the amount collected around the campground.

Tracey has been trying to get something similar running in the pines over busy periods, but I'm not sure how it's been going.
One Day Hero
28/10/2013
1:30:37 PM
The campground hosts I've met in north america get paid something like 5 bucks an hour plus free tenting, and it works fine in third world countries where that's what a real minimum wage job pays anyway. Are you seriously suggesting planting someone at Buandik and paying them 25/hour to collect camp fees?

nmonteith
28/10/2013
1:41:50 PM
On 28/10/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>Are you seriously
>suggesting planting someone at Buandik and paying them 25/hour to collect
>camp fees?

Yes - if they helped to control the masses of school kids that have camped for a week straight at Buandik the last two times I have attempted to stay there!

I actually thinking more of Stapylton campground.

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