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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
Author
Three Sisters declared an Aboriginal Place
simey
26/01/2014
1:23:52 PM
On 26/01/2014 Wendy wrote:

>I think a lot of these are off limits because of parks paranoia about
>climbing rather than aboriginal requests. Like the 3 sisters. If it was
>actually about respecting a traditional owner request to not climb on something,
>then parks would prevent any access to the 3 sisters and close the tourist
>route up uluru.

From what I understand the tourist route up Uluru has long been contentious. Despite Uluru being handed back to the Aboriginal people a number of years ago, a condition of the handover was that visitors were still allowed to climb to the top.

>I don't think the west wall was a great climb either. It
>was in a good location to a cute summit, for which you paid the price of
>dealing with a ton of tourists, then it was 50m of climbing in 300m of
>bushbashing and scrambling.

You tell me of all the other fantastic grade 12 and below routes in NSW. The West Wall might of had its faults but was still a great adventure in a spectacular part of the world. And 50m of climbing is still 50m of climbing. There are plenty of routes that require far more faffing to do a lot less climbing. And what do tourists have to do with anything? Yosemite has a stack of tourists too, but I don't see how that affects the climbing on its cliffs.


>In all my wandering up north, I have mostly found the cliffs to be complete
>rubbish, and certianly Lou's exploration of the cliffs around the Pentecost
>found lots of rubbish. Winjana gorge was the only exception, it is sizable
>limestone cliffs that could have good climbing and I don't think anyone
>has every discussed climbing with the local people, but I would guess that
>as it is a busy tourist area, parks would ban climbing for that.

There is a lot of rubbish rock (just like the Blue Mountains) but there are a handful of very spectacular cliffs that I have visited that would offer spectacular routes. Having established routes in the MacDonnell Ranges and walked in Kakadu, I know of some of the great climbing to be had and that could be had.

>
>And it isn't just aboriginal people leaving rubbish around the country.
>I'd say it was a distressing amount of the people who go out there by the
>amount of crap at camping areas, picnic areas, roadsides, riverbanks, beaches
>and yes, even climbing areas which are probably not accessed by people
>who aren't climbing.
>>
I don't dispute that plenty of other people litter our country with rubbish. But I have been amazed at the sheer scale of crap and broken beer bottles lying around some of the incredibly pretty waterholes surrounding Alice Springs.

simey
26/01/2014
2:21:56 PM
On 26/01/2014 ithomas wrote:
>Simey
>What an appropriate topic for Australia Day. The shitload of climbs you
>mention in NT and elsewhere simply do not exist. Until a route is established
>it cannot be taken away or banned

That's a ridiculous comment. Climbs don't need to exist for authorities to ban climbing. It's not too difficult to look at a lot of cliffs and see that they would have worthwhile climbing if climbing was allowed.

>There are lots of activities that are
>not easily conducted on Aboriginal land. It's not just climbing. To gnash
>your teeth over that is to call into question the rights of determination
>inherent in those land grants. You are right about there being no easy
>answers to the question of landscape degradation. Trashed campsites are
>one small but visible example but that pales into insignificance compared
>to the degraded cattle and sheep thrashed rangelands that you drive through
>anywhere from Port Augusta to Katherine - and who owns those stations?

I don't disagree.

> And what brain fade caused you to suggest that teaching people to climb
>is the equivalent of ramming it down people's throats?

There is no brain fade, although maybe the term 'ramming it down their throats' is excessive. However I have issues with the missionary concept of waltzing into someone else's world and introducing them to something because you think it will benefit them, rather than making the effort to get to know people and learn from their world.

One of my pet hates is the world of outdoor education and how the idea of taking a group of disadvantaged students top-rope climbing for a day or two is somehow beneficial to them. For those that do connect with climbing, they rarely have the opportunity to follow up on it. It is like giving someone a Xmas present and then snatching it away afterwards. Unless you go out of your way to do many more trips away with them and provide further training so they can lead climb independently, you are not really empowering them.

>I guess you must
>think that the footy clinics organised by Kevin Sheedy are another example
>of ramming a sport down people's throats. Footy is a good example where
>a long and concerted effort by a few people, including Sheedy, has made
>enormous changes to how indigenous issues are perceived by the public.

I am not sure how Aboriginal people latched onto footy historically. They might have simply seen the game being played and started playing it themselves, before putting their own spectacular twist on things. Kevin Sheedy's involvement with indigenous players has been positive, but he has also benefited greatly from the brilliance they have bought to his teams.

>Ask the Australian of the Year if there is still racism in footy. Ask him
>if outdoor adventure activities were rammed down his throat or if he was
>stimulated and made to feel welcome because he had a very special Physical
>Education teacher (Norm Booth) at Horsham High School. Education and inclusiveness
>is the key.

I am not sure how Adam Goodes becoming a great footballer and not being a climber (despite having Mt Arapiles and the Grampians in his backyard) is supporting your argument.

>If, after being exposed to climbing, Aboriginal people wanted
>to climb on their own cliffs then that would be fine. It would not be a
>question of ethics. It would would simply be their decision.

I don't think it would be that simple. If an aboriginal local wanted to bolt a few routes up the side of Uluru for his personal pleasure, I think it would cause quite a bit of controversy!


Doug
26/01/2014
3:43:26 PM
On 26/01/2014 simey wrote:

>One of my pet hates is the world of outdoor education and how the idea
>of taking a group of disadvantaged students top-rope climbing for a day
>or two is somehow beneficial to them.

If this is one of your pet hates Simey you must have a lot of them. The picture of Outdoor Education you paint is pretty limited. While I generally agree that a longitudinal program would be much more beneficial, even a day or two can make a huge difference for some. In some cases it can be the teacher who makes the difference, other times for the students it might just be the experience itself. I was lucky enough as a student to be taken hiking for a few days on Vancouver Island by my Phys Ed teacher and it changed my life. Just a one off experience not connected to any part of the curriculum.

It must be pretty ordinary on the mainland at the moment. Maybe you lot should all get yourselves down here to Tassie and get on the rock. It was a beautiful Australia Day on the Organ Pipes today, and all over the state for that matter. The forecast looks pretty darn good for at least the next week. Gerry's new guidebook is out in the shops no access issues for any of our worthwhile crags what more could you want?
simey
26/01/2014
3:57:13 PM
On 26/01/2014 Doug wrote:
>If this is one of your pet hates Simey you must have a lot of them. The
>picture of Outdoor Education you paint is pretty limited. While I generally
>agree that a longitudinal program would be much more beneficial, even a
>day or two can make a huge difference for some. In some cases it can be
>the teacher who makes the difference, other times for the students it might
>just be the experience itself. I was lucky enough to be taken for a multi-day
>hike on Vancouver Island as a student and it changed my life. Just a one
>off experience not connected to any part of the curriculum.

I work in outdoor ed so I plead guilty. But I am aware that genuinely empowering younger people to be self-reliant in the outdoors is buried under a lot of liability issues, schmaltzy feel-good de-briefing sessions and limited time/opportunity. I just feel that in my youth I had more opportunity and freedom to have adventures in the outdoors without all the bullshit.

>It must be pretty ordinary on the mainland at the moment. Maybe you lot
>should all get yourselves down here to Tassie and get on the rock. It was
>a beautiful Australia Day on the Organ Pipes today, and all over the state
>for that matter. The forecast looks pretty darn good for at least the
>next week. Gerry's new guidebook is out in the shops no access issues
>for any of our worthwhile crags

> what more could you want?

A shoulder that works and an arm that isn't encased in a sling.

ithomas
26/01/2014
5:55:15 PM
It's all about giving people opportunities and reasons to re-gain self-respect. The surfing and camping trips that Adam G. experienced at Horsham would have introduced him to a larger sporting world than just football. That wider outlook has contributed to his wonderfully positive perspective which motivates young indigenous footballers and celebrates multiple heritages. Education is the key and it's not being colonial or missionary to respectfully inquire if young people might be interested in climbing. It would be their decision. Exactly the opposite of what you infer from my note. You have gone walking and climbed in the north. It's not impossible to find unclimbed and accessible rock. It is however, very uncomfortable and remote. Never likely to be an Arapiles climbing scene up there but you never know. Lots of rock is on private property and permission must be asked. So too with rock on Aboriginal lands. The outcome of any enquiry will depend on who you ask and where you want to go. It may take time and it would be facilitated by demonstrations of good faith, but it is not actually banned in principle.


 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
There are 25 messages in this topic.

 

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