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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
Author
Carrot failure @ Muline
ademmert
17/11/2013
2:44:40 AM
On 16/11/2013 rightarmbad wrote:
>What nobody seems to have considered here, is that the bolts in question
>had to bear the brunt of an attempted removal the day before.
>Yep, they came out easy in the morning, but what more can you expect from
>a bolt that has had an attempt at removal the day before.
>Surely this weakened the placement.

Let me get this straight -
Did someone try to remove this bolt,fail and not leave any form of warning to anyone coming after??
If this is the case, this is an extreme case of negligence towards other climbers, in this instance KP and Neil and possibly others.
That sort pif practice could kill regardless of the bolt type.

ajfclark
17/11/2013
7:02:53 AM
The only reference I can see to people trying to remove bolts and coming back later is Neil's anecdote:

On 14/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>On 14/11/2013 The good Dr wrote:
>> (its installer incidentally told me recently that the freeze thaw cycles at Buffalo may be a problem with regards to bash in carrots over even the short to medium term).
>
>On a similar note a friend told me the other day they were doing some rebolting work on Taipan in the late afternoon (in the sun) and couldn't budge a couple of carrots. They came back the next morning (cool in the shade) and the bolts came out with minimal effort. So time of day (heat) may be a factor in bash-in carrot bolt failure!

Has rightarmband got Neil's comments about Muline and Taipan intertwined or does he know something we don't

alrob
17/11/2013
7:23:56 AM
On 16/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 14/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>>They are dodgy, it's well known. End of cause chit-chat, who's going
>to
>>fix them?
>
>As someone who is "risking their life" on bash in carrots (my gear is
>up on Serpentine, I'll be up there again tomorrow probably taking more
>whips on those bolts), allow me to add my 2c.
>
>If anyone goes and rebolts those mega classic routes without Malcolm's
>consent, I'll find out who you are, come and chop as many of your bolts
>as I can, and generally seek to fuch your shit up. If you can't talk to
>the bloke who put the routes up and gain his blessing, then you are not
>the right person for the job. If you're scared to get on the routes as
>they are, then those routes aren't for you.
>
>The F.A. is not a vindictive person, I am. End of internet threaty chit-chat.

Wow, I don't get why you seem to be a reasonable guy in person Damo yet a complete dickhead on Chockstone. Interesting line of ethics you've drawn here, given your talk about removing the fixed wires on Serpentine, I'm assuming AFTER you've done the route, on gear you rapped in to place. Would you like me to let you know which routes I've rebolted without the FA consent so you can chop them?

Only a couple of months ago, after I grumbled about some shitty placed bolts I his, did Malcolm confess that he thinks he should probably go and reevaluate some of his fixed gear. A mear mention of set pine however immediately drew out a 'nup, they're fine!'

'Nup, they're fine' means that everyone who lowers off the last bolt is trusting that the 50mm bash in carrot with a hanger in the steepest part of the wall that cops all the victory whips is still in prime condition... Maybe it is, but maybe it isn't.
Wendy
17/11/2013
8:56:06 AM
I do think that all the people who chose to clean Serpentine off the last bolt are making a rather dumb decision, but it is their decision. Malcolm bolted the route to be topped out on. Sure, I think that's getting a bit silly with a lot of his routes that are like that, but it should be clear that that is how the route is meant to be done by the complete absence of a lower off, and if people choose to trust a single 20 odd yo bash in carrot, well, it's their life.

I don't really see the issue with replacing carrots with fixed hangers with rings in the same spot (could you even reuse the holes with a p bolt if they were drilled deeper?) without the FA consent. It happens all the time. Nothing changes about the actual climbing of the route.

nmonteith
17/11/2013
9:40:22 AM
On 16/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>If anyone goes and rebolts those mega classic routes without Malcolm's
>consent, I'll find out who you are, come and chop as many of your bolts
>as I can,

That's the thing Damo. Lots of people, including me, have questioned Malcolm about his rusty or bash-in bolts but the answer is always - they are fine. I've offered to replace them. No - they are fine. Go and check out Inkido Roof at Lower Taipan. According to Malcolm those black-with-rust expansions upside down in a roof with the ground just below are fine and don't need replacing. I've waited for well over a decade for some action but nothing happens. I would be certain if I had asked to replace the bolts on After Midnight two weeks ago he would have told me they are fine and don't touch them.

ajfclark
17/11/2013
3:12:02 PM
How many can you "accidentally" pull out safely?
One Day Hero
Online Now
17/11/2013
3:42:01 PM
On 17/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>
>Lots of people, including me, have questioned Malcolm
>about his rusty or bash-in bolts but the answer is always - they are fine.
>I've offered to replace them. No - they are fine.

I'm not surprised Neil, I wouldn't want you rebolting any quality stuff around canberra either. Look, I like you , I respect you as a climber, but you're a bloody hummingbird. The last thing needed here is an impatient hyperactive zealot going out and making a giant mess on the best routes in the world!

Now, I do agree that those bash in bolts are due for replacement, but like Sliamese, I'm extremely apprehensive about some muppet going up there and botching it. And that is exactly the likely outcome when you and Mikl get onto a forum full of utter shankers and start saying "This has to be done right now, who's up for it?"

They've been catching whippers for 20 fuching years, they caught another of mine today. Calm the fuch down and do the job right (and that starts by consulting the f.a.)

Neil, if you're on a safety kick, go and fix all your routes at Upper Tribute. Those things are advertised in your new guide as safe sport routes, whereas they are in fact total ambushes for bumbly sport climbers. You boast that you bolted the whole crag in a weekend......well it fuching shows! There's broken ankle potential on every bloody route.
One Day Hero
Online Now
17/11/2013
3:49:55 PM
On 17/11/2013 alrob wrote:
>Interesting line of ethics you've drawn
>here, given your talk about removing the fixed wires on Serpentine, I'm
>assuming AFTER you've done the route, on gear you rapped in to place.

They aren't fixed wires, Al, they're stuck shit which needs to be cleaned so that people can get good wires in those slots. I'm a bit weirded out that you seem to be emotionally attached to rusting shitty wires, yet are totally horrified by the old bolts (which aren't even rusting!) And yes , I rapped the gear in this time. I've put it in from the ground a couple of times though, so what's the difference given that an extended siege was expected?

>'Nup, they're fine' means that everyone who lowers off the last bolt is
>trusting that the 50mm bash in carrot with a hanger in the steepest part
>of the wall that cops all the victory whips is still in prime condition...

This is the full convenience bolting arguement. Like Wendy said, you could easily top out, rig a good anchor, rap clean, and run around to collect your rope. By all means, choose laziness over safety if you want, but please don't try to claim that your conscious decision is someone else's fault.
One Day Hero
Online Now
17/11/2013
4:18:47 PM
On 17/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>I don't really see the issue with replacing carrots with fixed hangers
>with rings in the same spot (could you even reuse the holes with a p bolt
>if they were drilled deeper?) without the FA consent. It happens all the
>time. Nothing changes about the actual climbing of the route.

Here is the issue with rings or U's. What happens when it's time to replace those? Do you drill them out and leave enormous scars? Take a blowtorch up there and try Sliamese's weird heat method?

I'm sorry, but I'm extremely passionate about not fuching up these routes with botched holes and shit everywhere. There are plenty of routes where that stuff is less crucial, but you have to know when it's important to get it absolutely right. Example (and a bit bit more spray for mthrfukr); This winter I did some rebolting at Bungers. I did Jumpmaster without consulting the f.a. (Fants) and felt justified in doing so because it was a rarely repeate route which had never been cleaned properly as it was established ground up. So after trundling about 200kgs of rock and brushing the entire route, I didn't feel too guilty about straightening the bolt line out to reduce drag. However, on Siblings, where I rebolted the 2 hard pitches, I made damn sure to consult the f.a. and ask him if it was ok, and also get his preferences for bolt type and relocation etc. The difference is that Siblings is an iconic mega classic, which is regularly repeated, and a great deal of effort was made during establishment to get things right. Routes of that stature need to be treated with kid gloves, because if you fuch it up you're trashing a masterpiece.

nmonteith
17/11/2013
5:25:36 PM
On 17/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 17/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>>
>>Lots of people, including me, have questioned Malcolm
>>about his rusty or bash-in bolts but the answer is always - they are
>fine.
>>I've offered to replace them. No - they are fine.
>
>I'm not surprised Neil, I wouldn't want you rebolting any quality stuff
>around canberra either. Look, I like you , I respect you as a climber,
>but you're a bloody hummingbird. The last thing needed here is an impatient
>hyperactive zealot going out and making a giant mess on the best routes
>in the world!

My patience has already stretched to 15 years (the first time I went to Muline was around 1998, and I commented to Malcolm about the crappy bolting on Pocket Full of Dreams then). I've also offered my drill and my bolts to Malcolm in the past so he could do the job himself. I'm all for a quality job - it just needs to be done. Putting it off for another decade when we have very real evidence that they are crap seems a bit weird.

>Now, I do agree that those bash in bolts are due for replacement, but
>like Sliamese, I'm extremely apprehensive about some muppet going up there
>and botching it.

Malcolm should just do it himself. I said as much to him a week ago. Problem solved. Stainless expansions or glue-ins. Either way it's good. How about titanium rings with the best quality glue? I'm sure we could get a lot of people to chip in for the cost for rebolting routes like Serpentine. There should be no sub-standard hardware on these routes. World-class routes deserve world-class bolting.

>Neil, if you're on a safety kick, go and fix all your routes at Upper
>Tribute. Those things are advertised in your new guide as safe sport routes,
>whereas they are in fact total ambushes for bumbly sport climbers. You
>boast that you bolted the whole crag in a weekend......well it fuching
>shows! There's broken ankle potential on every bloody route.

Upper Tribute? I did one first ascent up there. It was a mixed route that has been subsequently retro-bolted (with permission). Everything else has been bolted by an assortment of others since I left Victoria. And I'm confused - isn't climbing all about being a non-pussy-hard-climbing-c--k-waving-testosterone-adventure or you must be a sport climbing f.......?
rowan
17/11/2013
5:33:52 PM
I've watched as the bolts on mr joshua were removed and those carrots were so bomber it was really a pointless exercise..

I agree with One Day Hero in that it would be a real shame if it was botched. I don't necessarily agree the F.A should have carte blanche on the decision of whether to replace the bolts or not. I don't think the F.A owns the route once they have climbed it. The likes of Serpentine and so forth are special beyond white man ownership culture. The general history of the route and area and the people who put the time in should be respected though.

As far as Serpentine goes I think It should be kept the way it is, as so many people know it and love it the way it is. I personally think it should have all the fixed gear removed and that pussy jugging rope taken away.

If there are these bash ins around, could it be not possible to just abseil down in the sun, pull the carrots out if they come so easy and in the same hole just replace it with an expansion bolt, being carful not to damage the surrounding rock in the process. No glue dripped all over the wall as so many people seem to do. No extra hole. If its a hanger less carrot maybe glue is needed to glue a machine bolt back into the hole, being careful to be neat. I think basically, if you can hardly tell the bolts have been swapped there should be no issue.

I share ODH's fear of a shit job. The workmanship that is quite often displayed around on new routes these days actually disgusts me. If rebolting leads to this I think it would be better if people just had the occasional ground fall.


nmonteith
17/11/2013
5:42:09 PM
On 17/11/2013 rowan wrote:
>The workmanship that is quite often displayed around on new routes these days actually disgusts me.
>If rebolting leads to this I think it would be better if people just had the occasional
>ground fall.

Quote of the month/year?!

nmonteith
17/11/2013
5:45:02 PM
Sadly, because Malcolm used/uses non-stainless dynabolts on most of his routes, and has now waited for decades to fix them, the bolts are well rusted and impossible to get out easily. I know - I once tried to remove one on Anaconda with all sorts of tools and it just disintegrated. The sleeve and cone were just welded together through rust. If the job was done properly the first time it wouldn't have to be a problem now.
Dave J
17/11/2013
6:53:35 PM
On 17/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>That's the thing Damo. Lots of people, including me, have questioned Malcolm
>about his rusty or bash-in bolts but the answer is always - they are fine.
>I've offered to replace them. No - they are fine. Go and check out Inkido
>Roof at Lower Taipan. According to Malcolm those black-with-rust expansions
>upside down in a roof with the ground just below are fine and don't need
>replacing. I've waited for well over a decade for some action but nothing
>happens. I would be certain if I had asked to replace the bolts on After
>Midnight two weeks ago he would have told me they are fine and don't touch
>them.

What did Malcolm actually have say about the Muline Carrot incident? Still fine? Operator error? I don't want to launch into a Malcolm bash here but he has placed the only bolt that I have been able to remove by flicking it with my little finger. Still makes my sphincter pucker up just thinking about it.

I guess there's 2 factors here in his hesitance.
1.Not wanting to see a mess made of his routes. I think the Contra Arms Pump rebolt debacle was a PR blunder by Nathan at a point where Malcolm was almost ready to see other people rebolt his routes (are the old bolts still in there next to the new ones or have they been cleaned up).
2.Giving permission to rebolt would be kind of acknowledging not having done a perfect job the first time round. Not something he's naturally very good at. Maybe question needs to be phrased in such a way so as not to be seen as a direct attack on his manhood.

Point one I totally understand, point 2, not so much. Peoples egos shouldn't dictate the future of those routes. How has Claw got to a point where he's comfortable in his own skin after having placed some shocking poor bolts over the years (the only other bolt Ive removed on lead with my bare fingers was one of his). Are there counseling sessions you can go to for this?

Whatever happens those bolts on Taipan it needs to not be a mess. What eventually replaces the old bolts should go in the old hole and whatever it is should be something that can ultimately be easily be removed and replaced without any more holes needing to be drilled. I'm less bothered about the absolute safety of the route than I am about the gradually deterioration of the rock through repeated rebolting. Ive always like expansion bolts over rings for that reason (interesting to hear about your Anaconda experience though).

Miguel75
17/11/2013
7:25:20 PM
On 17/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>I do think that all the people who chose to clean Serpentine off the last
>bolt are making a rather dumb decision, but it is their decision... SNIP... and if people choose to trust a single 20 odd yo bash in carrot, well, it's their life.

Is it a well known fact that the last bolt on Serpentine (amongst others) are bash in carrots? If so, lowering off it does sound kinda silly...

nmonteith
17/11/2013
7:55:41 PM
I think it's well known that international climbers have no clue what a carrot is!

ajfclark
17/11/2013
8:05:52 PM
On 17/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I think it's well known that international climbers have no clue what a carrot is!

I remember talking to an American guy in Yangshuo about the issue of hangers being stolen off the first bolt of a lot of routes. When I said there might be a solution to the problem he said "Don't you dare say anything about f---ing carrots and bolt plates".

Miguel75
17/11/2013
8:17:23 PM
On 17/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I think it's well known that international climbers have no clue what a
>carrot is!

Mmmm, touché;)
patto
17/11/2013
11:35:14 PM
At what point does the safety of the climbing community take precedence over the whims of the f.a. ? Or do people need to be reminded of what can and has happened with poorly bolted routes in Australia? There seems to be a a bit too much Zealotry involved here on an issue that can ultimately cost lives.

Few, if any, are saying every carrot needs to be replaced. However some clearly do, and this issue is something that needs to be discussed and managed as a community.

(All that said, I spent today happily leading above multiple carrots and was never worried in the slightest about their integrity.)


Ben_E
18/11/2013
8:02:01 AM
On 17/11/2013 patto wrote:
>At what point does the safety of the climbing community take precedence
>over the whims of the f.a. ?

>Few, if any, are saying every carrot needs to be replaced. However some
>clearly do, and this issue is something that needs to be discussed and
>managed as a community.

An interesting qn, and I agree a consensus needs to be reached.

My take is that FAs come with certain "rights". These include naming the route, getting your name up in lights in the guidebooks and substantial say on the nature of pro on the route (runout sketch-fest vs. well protected, perhaps mixed pro vs. all bolts etc etc). Ideally the nature of the route should still fit in with the ethos of the area.

The flip-side is that generally FAs occur on public land, and, unless you're bashing your way into the middle of no-where, probably represent an ascent of something that would be ultimately climbed by someone else in the future anyway. This comes with responsibilities to make sure any bolting is to a good standard, and also some rights for that mythical creature "the climbing community".

In my view a FA should not give eternal rights to veto the replacement* of bolts that are clearly substandard or past their use by date. By all means, consult the FAist if they are contactable as a sign of respect when replacing bolts, but ultimately we can't be in a position where every rusted carrot or whatever needs to be cleared with a cantankerous geezer in the nursing home before being replaced (clearly HB and most of the FAists are not in this state yet... but they will be).

That said, any rebolting also needs to be done sensibly and with an eye to the inevitable re-re-placement that will probably have to occur in another 40 years, at least in popular areas that have not been re-claimed by moss.

It seems that the ASCA and others have been working in this space fairly well and with relatively little controversy for years in the US - is there a reason it is so hard to gain consensus here?

*Note "replacement". Adding of new bolts raises the bar significantly.

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