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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 12 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
Author
Carrot failure @ Muline
kieranl
28/11/2013
8:38:59 AM
On 28/11/2013 crackalackin! wrote:
>On 27/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>On 27/11/2013 crackalackin! wrote:
>>>The odd piton on a trad route is treated by almost everyone as dodgy.
>>
>>~> ... This is an interesting perspective, and reflects a generational
>>change I guess.
>
>You are right M9, it's definitely a younger climber thing.
And what makes you say that? I can't say that any of my regular climbing partners would qualify as young and all would regard a fixed peg on any route (trad or sport) as dodgy.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
28/11/2013
8:54:34 AM
On 28/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 28/11/2013 crackalackin! wrote:
>>On 27/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>>On 27/11/2013 crackalackin! wrote:
>>>>The odd piton on a trad route is treated by almost everyone as dodgy.
>>>
>>>~> ... This is an interesting perspective, and reflects a generational
>>>change I guess.
>>
>>You are right M9, it's definitely a younger climber thing.
>And what makes you say that? I can't say that any of my regular climbing
>partners would qualify as young and all would regard a fixed peg on any
>route (trad or sport) as dodgy.

Fair enough, though in my experience cleaning up some of the manky looking fixed pins (and other fixed pro), at Buffalo (especially where good trad gear can be obtained adjacent), surprised me greatly how hard they were to remove, and how 'intact' the hidden metal was compared to the surface rust visible.
During removal I came to the conclusion that they were still good for any likely fall at their locations.
~> I guess it has tended to reinforce a degree of counter-they-are-all-dubious logic in me!

By the way, I still back up where possible, fixed gear (including pins), that I come across on adventure climbs where I have not tested the insitu stuff.
kieranl
28/11/2013
9:22:07 AM
It is eternally surprising what holds (and vice-versa). The problem with pegs is that you just have no idea how strong or weak they are. If you're lucky(?) they'll pull out in your hand so you know for sure that they're useless.

robbie
28/11/2013
9:33:42 AM
"Oils aint oils, Sol!" If you didn't know Loctite is a brand name for a range of products. Check out the following if you need to go further. http://www.loctite.com.au/threadlocking-4043.htm. Carrots are a simple wedging device and like ALL MECHANICAL devices " I believe," can fail given the right circumstances. It would seem carrots lend themselves to shear forces rather than tensile forces. Just look at the recent COOTES fuel tanker debacle. An entire fleet grounded due to mechanical failure. Thank heavens things have progressed with the availability of new and different fasteners. Happy Days.

gnaguts
28/11/2013
10:01:42 AM
Go bouldering instead. It has none of the problems discussed on this thread.
mikllaw
28/11/2013
10:09:53 AM
On 28/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Fair enough, though in my experience cleaning up some of the manky looking
>fixed pins (and other fixed pro), at Buffalo (especially where good trad
>gear can be obtained adjacent), surprised me greatly how hard they were
>to remove, and how 'intact' the hidden metal was compared to the surface
>rust visible.

meanwhile even relatively new pitons rust quickly on sandstone, perhaps the porous rock holds more moisture?

kieranl
28/11/2013
11:40:02 AM
On 28/11/2013 ratherthinkicanV9 wrote:
>Go bouldering instead. It has none of the problems discussed on this thread.
Other than environmental impact on popular sites, potential damage to indigenous cultural sites and unforgivable crimes of fashion.

sliamese
28/11/2013
5:11:00 PM
>The carrots at Hillwood are not time bombs about to fail and hurt someone,
>and neither are the expansion bolts. They have passed the Subaru test,
>the crowbar/shifter test and the bash the shit out of it test.
>I think it should be approached on a bolt by bolt case - that if a suspect
>bolt is discovered, then replace it.

its strange then that it took me all of a few minutes to remove one of those carrots with a spanner to loosen it and a claw hammer behind the hanger once spinning. i am glad however that easy removal was part of the design of these bolts! ;)

as for the subaru test, you should get a 12mm dynabolt, put the nut on with only 2-2.5 turns so theres not enough thread in the nut, then floor it! also what do you tighten when the nut and hanger fall off into the undergrowth?

most of the carrots out there in the world are bomber, for now. when people are willing to replace them and remove doubt i think that shouldn't be discouraged! it WILL have to happen at some stage, naive to think bolts last forever. As long as they do a good job and don't change the character of classic routes! mostly though im really glad and appreciative of the efforts of the FA. i dont think anyone can slag off the people that have equipped routes that have been enjoyed for years and years, obviously the bolts worked as we all hang off them. its much easier to replace hardware than put up FA's, by a mile! i also think bolters need to acknowledge that the best possible installation isn't permanent, and now there are much better, stronger and more failsafe alternatives than were available in the 80's and 90's. it will be part of the evolution of a crag the anchors are replaced. a quick stroll through many euro crags shows how some fore-thought can avoid two or three scars at every bolt from the different generations of hardware used.
Wendy
28/11/2013
6:57:48 PM
These are the bolts I bought from Phil (taken from climbinganchors.com)



Damo assures me they are trubolts under another name. Fixe not only calls them double expansions, leading people like me to think they work like normal expansions, but then claims they are better than other bolts. Hence i imagine I'm not the only person who thought they were good to place. Maybe this needs a little clarifying?
patto
28/11/2013
7:28:57 PM
On 28/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>Damo assures me they are trubolts under another name. Fixe not only calls
>them double expansions, leading people like me to think they work like
>normal expansions, but then claims they are better than other bolts. Hence
>i imagine I'm not the only person who thought they were good to place.
>Maybe this needs a little clarifying?

Technically Trubolts ARE expansion anchors.

To be more accurate, a Trubolt is a sleeveless expansion anchor. This Fixe bolt is a double expansion sleeveless anchor. This Fixe bolt operates in a similar manner to a Trubolt but has a larger expansion area.

The result is that you would expect it is perform better in soft rock to a Trubolt. It is hard to compare the performance compare to other expansions in soft rock without a direct comparison.
mikllaw
28/11/2013
8:49:26 PM
On 28/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>These are the bolts I bought from Phil (taken from climbinganchors.com)
>
>
>
>Damo assures me they are trubolts under another name. Fixe not only calls
>them double expansions, leading people like me to think they work like
>normal expansions, but then claims they are better than other bolts. Hence
>i imagine I'm not the only person who thought they were good to place.
>Maybe this needs a little clarifying?

They do seem good, but the one time I've seen used they killed Nic Kaz. Certainly in good rock they are ok, in soft rock the hole will be flared enough that only the deep cone will hold (or not)
argos44
28/11/2013
11:16:42 PM
I chopped and replaced with rings a dozen of these a couple of weeks ago because you couldn't tighten the nut without the shaft spinning. Horrible in soft rock!

nmonteith
29/11/2013
5:13:40 AM
On 28/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>These are the bolts I bought from Phil (taken from climbinganchors.com)
>
>
>
>Damo assures me they are trubolts under another name. Fixe not only calls
>them double expansions, leading people like me to think they work like
>normal expansions, but then claims they are better than other bolts. Hence
>i imagine I'm not the only person who thought they were good to place.
>Maybe this needs a little clarifying?

Sorry to sound grumpy Wendy, but you keep pointing out how inexperienced and clueless you are about bolting, then act surprised that you bought the wrong bolts. Please get someone with modern bolting experience in the Grampians (not elsewhere) to give you a tutorial before installing any bolts - especially on classic routes. Its plainly obvious to anyone with bolting experience that those are trubolts and not suitable for the soft rock at Bundaleer. Just because a shop sells it doesn't mean its OK. You should have the knowledge.
Jim Titt
29/11/2013
5:27:18 AM
The double-clip wedge bolts are from an idea by Fischer/Upat and taken up by Raumer. The concept is that the clips are spaced to conform to the size of aggregate used in concrete so the at least one will always engage in a piece of gravel and not the cement which is hardly interesting for climbers.
Fischer actually give slightly lower values for this design but this is pretty irrelevant, they donīt seem to work any better in soft rock in our experience and tests anyway than the normal simgle-clip variety.
Wendy
29/11/2013
9:10:04 AM
Don't stress Neil, Kent is going to come and look at the Ogive with me when he does the steep routes at Bundaleer. But it does seem asking for problems to have a bolt made by a reputable climbing company, promoted by them as better than other bolts, sold at climbing stores and then virtually everyone on this thread says they are crap.
kieranl
29/11/2013
9:28:13 AM
They're not crap bolts as such, just not suitable for the application. It's a case of using the right tool for the job. If someone turned up at Bundaleer with a set of RPs you'd tell them to leave them in the pack wouldn't you? Brilliant gear but not in that rock.

nmonteith
29/11/2013
10:12:12 AM
Exactly. Bundaleer and many of the steep crags in the Grampians are made of rock in the lower end of the hardness scale. Remember that Europeans bolt granite and limestone, not sandstone. Same goes for most a most American sport crags. Red Rocks and Red River Gorge are major exceptions though - where truebolts would also be crap.
marky
29/11/2013
11:17:47 AM
Hey Neil, has there been any updates or word from Malcolm yet?

Neil
29/11/2013
11:28:13 AM
You could try drilled baby angle pitons:



And for extra bling fill the hole with glue from walmart.

Jim Titt
30/11/2013
3:44:17 AM
On 29/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Exactly. Bundaleer and many of the steep crags in the Grampians are made
>of rock in the lower end of the hardness scale. Remember that Europeans
>bolt granite and limestone, not sandstone. Same goes for most a most American
>sport crags. Red Rocks and Red River Gorge are major exceptions though
>- where truebolts would also be crap.

Hmmm. Maybe you mean the Euros have vast experience in bolting sandstone for at least a century and know not to bother with pissy little mechanical bolts?

 Page 12 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
There are 257 messages in this topic.

 

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