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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 7 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
Author
Carrot failure @ Muline
patto
20/11/2013
10:53:37 PM
Interesting comments regarding Trubolts not being suitable for Grampians.....

It begs the question why not? Trubolts are acceptable in concrete for cyclical for permanent actions and cyclical loads. As I understand it the Grampian's rock strength is stronger than typical low strength concrete. So why are we finding Trubolts failing? Insufficient initial tightening? Or maybe it would be better to use 12mm for better strength capacity.

Having had hundreds of Trubolts installed in concrete, I have never seen a jammed bolt or a spinner there certainly is something different happening here in the sandstone.
widewetandslippery
21/11/2013
6:11:03 AM
patto, Neil explained this in the prior post, Gramps sandstone whilst not internally the mush Bluies sandstone is, is still sofft past the outer crust.

Trubolts look so nice in the shop with a fatte shaft to the end than a dyna etc. but all things aside they dont even have the pull out or shear ratings a dyna has let alone loosening problems.

Going up in size with a trubolt is not the answer.

The good Dr
21/11/2013
8:16:11 AM
On 21/11/2013 widewetandslippery wrote:
>patto, Neil explained this in the prior post, Gramps sandstone whilst not
>internally the mush Bluies sandstone is, is still sofft past the outer
>crust.
>
>Trubolts look so nice in the shop with a fatte shaft to the end than a
>dyna etc. but all things aside they dont even have the pull out or shear
>ratings a dyna has let alone loosening problems.
>
>Going up in size with a trubolt is not the answer.

A number of points.

1. Trubolt type anchors have greater rated capacities than dynabolts in both tension and sheer. Check the design loadings and capacities, eg hilti or ramset.
2. It is the functional design that affects their capacity to work in softer materials not the ultimate load capacity. Trubolts work best in relatively uniform solid materials as the length of the 'expanding cone' is relatively small. This allows for design of greater capacity in the shaft. The long sleeve on the dynabolt will take up over a greater length, though do not expand width wise more than a trubolt.
3. Not all Grampians sandstone is mush behind the solid surface layer, it depends on the particlar cliff and sometimes even the location on the cliff.
4. There is no one solution to the replacement issues.
5. Use good, sharp, unworn bits when drilling holes.
6. Multiple pass drilling of holes, ie pulling the bit an and out regularly whilst drilling, often leads to larger holes. This can make it difficult for trubolt type anchor installation as the expanding sheeth needs to have adequate initial friction for uptake of the cone.

Drilling accurate holes in softer rock is more difficult and even cleaning with a hard bristled brush can expand the size of the hole internally. This will be noted during cleaning when additional material is constantly being removed by the brush. When the rock has that level of softness a glue anchor would be prefferable as any friction anchor will have significantly reduced capacity and if loaded regularly is bound to become loose.

salty crag
21/11/2013
8:20:06 AM
I know this will never happen but I would love to put the leading contributors to this thread and a few others (HB) in a secure location and have them bash out an Aussie bolting best practise and code of ethics. This would include retro bolting, especially classic climbs.
Wendy
21/11/2013
8:30:43 AM
Oops, did I start all this debate about tru-bolts? I don't even know if the bolts I got from Phil are tru-bolts! I just asked for 2 bolts to put into Bundaleer and took what he gave me. But they don't look like they just have a small area in tension on the rock - they are really quite long and have 2 sections that look like they expand and look like they should be the bees knees. I can't see any reason why they would be removeable just like the expansions I've put into the concrete slab of my house. As you can tell, I'm a bolting expert ... I think they sell them on climbinganchors.com as well. I'd take a photo, but they're at home and I'm in Nowra. Actually, Damo could just go and look at them for me - they are in a cloth bag on the bottom shelf of the book shelf full of sheet music.
mikllaw
21/11/2013
8:44:34 AM
On 21/11/2013 The good Dr wrote:
>1. Trubolt type anchors have greater rated capacities than dynabolts in
>both tension and sheer.

Yes-but they don't work well on steep climbs. Lots of reasons why.

nmonteith
21/11/2013
9:06:24 AM
Bundaleer is some of the softest rock in the Grampians and not suitable for tru bolts. The bolts that had serious problems in the Blue Mtns that led to the death of Nick Kaz were tru bolts. Just because a shop sells bolts doesn't mean those bolts are suitable for every type of rock. Manic Depressive was rebolted with dynabolts, and these were not good enough. Because of the steep angle, heavy dogging and soft rock they loosened up quickly. I suggest that glue in bolts are the only type suitable for high traffic Bundaleer routes. Long 12mm dynabolts would be OK for vertical routes with low traffic.
kp
21/11/2013
9:10:14 AM
Trubolts are basically the only new bolt regularly failing in the gramps. They are the least practical and many are merely stuck in like a carrot bolt!!! Anyone who wants to see how trubolts last should visit kalymnos (spinning and missing hangers ahoy!!).

Please do not place these if you have minimal experience with bolting.
Wendy
21/11/2013
9:18:42 AM
I was going to replace the first 3 aid bolts on the Ogive, which are the only gear available at the start of the route and are ancient with 2 good bolts. I didn't want to place the u bolts that I had because I thought they were more visually intrusive and it's not an area full of u bolts everywhere. So what is the recommended option then?

And maybe someone who knows something should go look at all the steep routes at Bundaleer, because I have a feeling they are full of old bolts of varying sorts, including a malcolm home made weird arse contraption.
mikllaw
21/11/2013
9:29:07 AM
well placed rings and Ubolts (take a rag) are much less visible than using a fixed bracket. When you finish wiping the glue off the rock, wipe some on the bolt and throw a handful of dust and sand on them, you won't be able to find them from the gound.

Given the rock quality, this would be the only option there.

rodw
21/11/2013
9:40:44 AM
Always amuses me on steep routes people worry about the bolts being "visually intrusive" when the chalk coated everywhere is much more so...just look at the piccy at the start of this thread....seriously a bolt or two is not the issue when worrying about visual impact.
uwhp510
21/11/2013
11:02:16 AM
On 21/11/2013 rodw wrote:
>....seriously a bolt or two is
>not the issue when worrying about visual impact.

Depends on what kind of things you find offensive. I personally don't like sport climbing, so I have a particular distaste for stainless rings (obviously this puts me in the minority, but whatever).

As for Bundaleer, if you're going to glue something in, why not a stainless carrot? With or without a hanger? Looks the same as it did before, its cheap and strong (enough... surely). Personally, I reckon you should try and get hold of some of those big old doorknocker type ring bolts from East Germany. They would really zazz up the crag :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecns_W9q_s0

rodw
21/11/2013
11:19:12 AM
On 21/11/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>Depends on what kind of things you find offensive.

I get that but I'm only talking about visual impact, plenty of pro 7 cons for not placing a ring/U etc but on steep routes with all the chalk around, visual impact is way down the list of cons if even a consideration....signalling out bolts for that reason alone is a bit daft IMHO.
pecheur
21/11/2013
11:30:51 AM
On 21/11/2013 rodw wrote:
>On 21/11/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>>Depends on what kind of things you find offensive.
>
>I get that but I'm only talking about visual impact, plenty of pro 7 cons
>for not placing a ring/U etc but on steep routes with all the chalk around,
>visual impact is way down the list of cons if even a consideration....signalling
>out bolts for that reason alone is a bit daft IMHO.
>
I agree, ban chalk ...

nmonteith
21/11/2013
12:11:05 PM
Ogive - use gluein rings or U's. The rock is soft (enter sandamn - the softest rock I have ever bolted in the grampians is 10m left). It is also overhung and would pull hangers in strange directions, resulting in them rotating and undoing. When I had a play on that route a few years back I vaguely remember thinking that none of the old bolts were required, even at the start. Dies it really need 3 new bolts? My memory could be poor though.
gfdonc
21/11/2013
12:17:33 PM
On 21/11/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>As for Bundaleer, if you're going to glue something in, why not a stainless
>carrot? With or without a hanger?

Please no more hangerless carrots. They ought to go the way of the dodo.

ajfclark
21/11/2013
12:32:40 PM
On 21/11/2013 pecheur wrote:
>I agree, ban chalk ...

Spoken like a true dryhander...

Macciza
21/11/2013
12:37:24 PM
On 21/11/2013 gfdonc wrote:
>Please no more hangerless carrots. They ought to go the way of the dodo.
>

He did say a 'glue-in' bolt, which is not strictly a 'carrot' . ..

What is the problem with 'hangerless' glued-in bolts?? When used with rated hangers??
mikllaw
21/11/2013
12:41:18 PM
On 21/11/2013 Macciza wrote:
>What is the problem with 'hangerless' glued-in bolts?? When used with
>rated hangers??

Hangers rated to 22 kN (between 2 biners) fail at 3 to 10 kN. Or come off.
uwhp510
21/11/2013
3:09:52 PM
On 21/11/2013 rodw wrote:
>I get that but I'm only talking about visual impact,

So am I. I'm saying that the look of ring bolts shits me (not their feel or taste or load rating or anything else) because of the blandifying effect they have on a crag. I think that once you start sinking stainless rings at a crag its the first steps down the path of it starting look like every other sport climbing shit-hole. Folks who only ever go sport climbing have probably never considered that this is even a bad thing, because they only ever visit sport climbing shit-holes, but personally, I hate it.

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There are 257 messages in this topic.

 

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