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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 24
Author
Clipped bolt plate came off carrot bolt

ehestigoni
29/09/2013
8:01:25 PM
Hi all,

Has anybody who climbed 14 Carrot Gold in the Blueys notice if the carrots look a bit smaller than normal?

I've finished the climb and had the belay station at the top ready to bring the second...
I started to pull the rope, and after a few good pulls my wife had the first quickdraw with the clipped bolt plate in her hands...

We all know that the draws move a lot when pulling the rope from the top...
But still, a clipped bolt plate (with a proper binner) should never come off the carrot, right?

The binner clipped onto the bracket was a Dynotron from the BD livewire draws...

I've read the post from mikllaw "A small study of unclipping from keyhole hangers" and saw that Petzl spirits have issues with boltplates... Maybe Dynotron binners have the same issue?

On my way down I stopped to inspect a few carrots including the first one (which the bracket came off from). All carrots on that route have the same size and did not have the edges grind.

They definitely look a bit smaller... Any comments?

ajfclark
Online Now
29/09/2013
9:04:55 PM
So the issue with spirits is that the metal just above the keylock/nose is very thin and doesn't fill the keyhole of the bolt plate enough (near the p in patented):


What's the profile of the dynotrons like just above the keylock? Looks fairly thin in an image but not that bad:

nmonteith
29/09/2013
10:03:47 PM
Carrot bolts come in all sorts of head sizes - usually from 15mm to 17mm. The 15mm ones are pretty dodgy if you have the wrong combination - RP 90 degree hangers and Spirits are a disaster on these. I experienced this on Superliner at Point Perp where hangers just fell off as I was climbing the route! (I only own a handful of biners that aren't Spirits).

The 17mm heads are the ones that usually require filing down or are neigh impossible to whittle the smaller PFH hangers onto them.

16mm is good.

harold
29/09/2013
10:46:02 PM
On 29/09/2013 ehestigoni wrote:

>
>On my way down I stopped to inspect a few carrots including the first
>one (which the bracket came off from). All carrots on that route have the
>same size and did not have the edges grind.
>

so did you check to see how the dynotron biner came off, and if any other biner types could come off too.
Any idea what size the bolts were, 3/8th or smaller? I noticed climbing below the hang glidler ramp at Mt Buffalo the carrots were smaller than I was used to. I checked and my old biners seemed just ok but I was thinking modern biners would probably be able to come off.

Modern light biners are skinnier than the old ones and they're all slightly different, so you really need to check each type these days. Clip the biner to the bolt and try every possible way it could come off so you know for sure. Still you have to be unlucky because the biner has to be in the perfect place to let the plate lift off.

Its not surprising that it was the first draw that came off as the first piece is usually the most subject to being pulled upwards when the climber is higher up and pulls up rope. Same reason as why wires can lift out when its your first piece.
mikllaw
Online Now
30/09/2013
7:16:01 AM
yep, just about all bolt plates can come off with modern biners.
It's a well known issue; get used to it
You can use fat (screwgate) biners if your life depends on it. Sometimes you can fit 2 biners in the boltplate. Sometimes you can place a Ubolt instead.

They occasionally flip upside down in a fall and peel off the bolt at very low load; no-one has died from this yet.

BlankSlab
30/09/2013
9:13:07 AM
On 30/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>yep, just about all bolt plates can come off with modern biners.
>It's a well known issue; get used to it
>You can use fat (screwgate) biners if your life depends on it. Sometimes
>you can fit 2 biners in the boltplate. Sometimes you can place a Ubolt
>instead.
>
>They occasionally flip upside down in a fall and peel off the bolt at
>very low load; no-one has died from this yet.


Certainly something of note to the many new climbers out there assuming that bolts are "safe". I think there ae many people who wouldn't even consider the size of the biners and just clip and climb on.

ehestigoni
1/10/2013
8:51:42 AM
Thanks for the comments guys.

nmonteith:
They were PFH 90 degree.


harold:
Unfortunately I did not check other biners or how the dynotron came off... It was the end of the day... Getting dark... 40 min walk back to the car... And Although I reckon the carrots were smaller, I wouldn't know the size.

>Still you have to be unlucky because the biner has to be
>in the perfect place to let the plate lift off.

That's what I thought... And I did not think that Dynotrons would have the issue, because if they really do, it's very likely that any other newish BlackDiamond quickdraws will have too.

I've played around trying to remove these draws from other carrots before, and on those carrots I've tried, the dynotrons were pretty good.

Some carrots are even hard to fit the bracket on without the biner, right? (West Face of Mirrorbal has some nice fat carrots like that)


But I guess I have to review my concepts:

mikllaw:
>yep, just about all bolt plates can come off with modern biners.
>It's a well known issue; get used to it


Batey:
>Certainly something of note to the many new climbers out there
> assuming that bolts are "safe". I think there ae many people
> who wouldn't even consider the size of the biners and just clip
> and climb on.
>

Right on... I "assumed" my draws were "average" draws, and so I did not think I had to worry about them on every climb with carrots...

I actually carry a set of different bracket brands and types so that if one does not fit on the carrot, another one will... Wire gates are a big no, and that's pretty evident...


I'll definitely pay more attention when clipping carrots from now on.
rbh
1/10/2013
9:35:03 AM
I noticed Dynotrons looked a bit narrow and tried them out on several carrot bolts and bracket combinations, they came off every time. I now try and buy fat biners for the top end of my draws.
BBSR
1/10/2013
1:07:01 PM

Personally, even being aware of the issue of carrots when moving to Australia, I still had a hard time figuring out which draws were ok and which were not. I've definitely seen a few different biners with the same problem.

If it helps anyone, I settled on BD Posi-wires, as I had some people say the positron top biners were ok (and I like wire gate bottom biners). So far I haven't had an issue with them on carrots. They are a bit on the heavy side though...


One Day Hero
1/10/2013
1:27:21 PM
Anyone who leads on carrots without first checking whether their draws can wiggle off is an accident waiting to happen. Same with checking your slippery new rope/old worn out gri gri combo......it might be totally fine, but if you're the sort of person who doesn't bother to find out until it comes to catching a fall, please identify yourself somehow so that I don't make the mistake of ever climbing with you!

rodw
1/10/2013
1:33:23 PM
On 1/10/2013 BBSR wrote:
> They are a bit on
>the heavy side though...


Not as heavy as a trad rack though, which the carrots are helping you avoid (or reduce)

shortman
Online Now
1/10/2013
1:41:08 PM
I remember climbing Milawa @ Black Hill, (my first route with carrots), and was about to clip the 2nd bolt plate when the first one fell off. Oh well, got the second one on, so didn't worry about it. Anyway, got to the 3rd, put bolt plate on, clipped it and went straight to the top. Pullin the rope and the 2nd one fell off. That's weird I thought??

Seconder starts coming up, gets to the only bolt plate left and subsequently informed me that I'd put the plate on upside down.

Ooops. No wonder they all came off. But I did learn that they are heaps easier to put on upside down.

Climb over summer ODH?
rbh
1/10/2013
1:54:41 PM
I did the same thing on one of my early leads. I even managed to fall off on the second bolt, twice, but luckily the hanger and draw stayed on. I was completely unaware of what I had done untill my second came up and noticed something was amiss, unclipped the rope from the draw, went to get the draw off the hanger when it and the hanger fell off. I haven't made that mistake since and have stressed this point to any new climbers I've taken out.

ehestigoni
1/10/2013
2:45:24 PM
On 1/10/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>Anyone who leads on carrots without first checking whether their draws
>can wiggle off is an accident waiting to happen.

Do you really grab each draw you just clipped to a bolt plate and try to get it off ???
Champion!
One Day Hero
1/10/2013
3:06:40 PM
On 1/10/2013 ehestigoni wrote:
>Do you really grab each draw you just clipped to a bolt plate and try
>to get it off ???
>Champion!

No, you find a representative carrot at a belay, or somewhere you can boulder to. Then take a representative biner and bolt plate and fiddle to see what happens. After that you can use inductive logic to predict how things will behave on the route.......this is (as far as I can tell) what all the smart climbers do with everything (cams, ropes, belay devices, etc). The idiots just bumble on up then act surprised when they land in hospital.

Whatevers, stupid people gonna stupid

ehestigoni
1/10/2013
3:21:44 PM
So easy to criticize these days hay?
I've started this thread with the intention to inform fellow climbers that there might be something to watch out for on that route...

Now... If you can "predict" that your biner will be fine on any carrot from your test with your "representative binner" clipped to your "representative carrot" you are indeed a Champion! I hope you did not test this on the day you were a hero, or you might have biased the results... Maybe something to watch out hay?
One Day Hero
1/10/2013
4:21:31 PM
On 1/10/2013 ehestigoni wrote:
>Now... If you can "predict" that your biner will be fine on any carrot
>from your test with your "representative binner" clipped to your "representative
>carrot" you are indeed a Champion!

If you don't understand the term "representative" in this context, there's no helping you.
rightarmbad
1/10/2013
8:37:50 PM
Eggy, most good or bad plate/biner combinations are well known to more established climbers.
You don't need to continually test each one.
My carrot draws will only come off the smallest of bolt heads and then only in very specific orientations.
Those situations ring alarm bells and you deal with them appropriately.

There is plenty of information everywhere from books to online and best of all, those that regularly climb at carroted locations.

If you get hurt from a plate coming off a bolt, stupid/lazy is a very large contribution to the outcome.

ehestigoni
2/10/2013
8:53:22 AM
Hey rightarmbad,

I was surprised with the bracket coming off the carrot because this was the first time I've seen this happening. I did not know that smaller bolts were that common and this was such a well known issue. I've been climbing mainly in the Blueys for about 4 years now. Tested some draws on carrots back then, and got used to clip them, flip the biner and all that. I climb on carrots regularly, and yet, this was the first time that I've seen this happening.

Reading the replies to this post, I get now that more people had similar issues.

I was aware of the problem with wire gates, which is pretty obvious. But I really did not think that the "narrow nose" issue (as with the Petzl Spirits) would apply to other biners which are so common nowadays. And that's where I went wrong, my fault, lack of info.

I've got Hotwire draws as well (nitron biner at the top), and looking at them now I reckon they're as narrow as the dynotrons...

I guess all this turns to be a good experience (since nothing bad happened), and I'll definitely help to share this info with less experienced climbers (as most of you did).

Thanks.

nmonteith
2/10/2013
10:12:09 AM
The other thing to look out for is carrot bolts sticking out a lot. It means the hanger can rotate a lot more, and thus get to a point where it can fall off easier.

I think the best tip is to have a set of quickdraws especially made for carrot bolts - with extra thick biners.

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There are 24 messages in this topic.

 

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