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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
First in best dressed?

JMK
10/04/2013
8:25:18 PM
Yes kachoong has anchor bolt at bottom but this does not change the climb. Bolting the face and roof would - that would be cause for action.

On a single pitch climb having ring anchors does not give me heartburn but I know it would others. Change the character of a climb is what matters to me and would move me to action. Life is a measure of grey not black and white. I was wondering if anyone would make that argument. If you can not see my point about a route's character being changed then it is a hopeless position. Better explain blue to a blind person.

My point remains - people who feel strongly act and don't just talk ( for years it seems)

nmonteith
Online Now
10/04/2013
9:06:54 PM
On 10/04/2013 JMK wrote:
>Yes kachoong has anchor bolt at bottom but this does not change the climb.
>Bolting the face and roof would - that would be cause for action.

As ODH said it now has a big fat ringbolt in the middle of the face (it's been there at least 5 years). I was a bit taken back when it got put in. There used to be an old piton, but my memory of doing it pre-ringbolt was that this piton wasn't vital - there was some wires or cams nearby. It certainly changed the character of the route IMHO.

Macciza
10/04/2013
9:10:05 PM
! . ?
One Day Hero
10/04/2013
9:43:57 PM
So, there was always a pretty shoddy sawn-off peg to protect the moves at the start (which you could back up at foot level). Then someone changed the peg for a U and added top belay bolts plus 2 more bolts with a rap chain. The local cleaners got rid of the 4 top bolts but the one on the route was left in place.

Depending on how long it is since you've been to Araps, there are somewhere between a bunch and a shitload of new bolts. Most of them are belay/loweroff bolts at the top of single pitches. I was trying to figure out why things were getting so conveniency. My leading theory is that it's to facilitate quick "sport trad" days by Nati locals who don't seem to believe in full days at the crag anymore (but still want get as many pitches as possible done between their morning road ride and the afternoon windsurfing session)

stugang
10/04/2013
10:02:23 PM
On 10/04/2013 Macciza wrote:

>>Also, I think rowans suggestion of thinking about a system to ensure
>that "trad projects" are not engulfed by a wave of rabid bolters is a good
>one, and one that should
>>be seriously considered while there is still a population of climbers
>that can see both sides of the fence.
>
>Kind of agree here, but are you serious? 'Think about a system'? There
>is already one that has been in place for decades to the point that it
>used be accepted as 'unwritten law' that has since been actually become
>'written' in numerous documents and bolting polices/guidelines etc. Do
>you really think there is need to re-invent the 'ethics' that have existed
>for so long ? Particularly as it would seem they want to shift things further
>away from what is already established, yet ignored . . .


Why the f'ck not establish a code for "tagging" a trad project? Despite the fact that the notion of red tape on the first bolt of a project nauseates me, you've got to admit it kinda works. Even those rabid "spurt climbers" who drink the blood of innocent pussycats to increase their endurance seem to respect it from time to time. Next trad project try smashing in a piton with red tape (maybe include a tag with your ph no on it just off the ground).

At a minimum you'll have moral superiority, and I suspect you'll have actual support if some scallywag comes along and bolts your piton tagged project.

Macciza
10/04/2013
10:29:36 PM
Well, apart from there already being multiple 'codes' telling them not to do it in the first place, in general trad 'projects' are usually 'open' if you are trying it trad, but 'closed' to bolting . . .

My route at Sublime Point was discussed on here, written up online as a trad project, and the people bolting there all knew I was trying it; and they still end up bolting without any consultation whatsoever!! I may have even left a wire on it, not sure, though I have on other climbs and been derided for it. . . .
Or in Rowan's case - having chopped the first set of bolts and full knowledge of the situation it still got revolted by Dh Saunders. .

So I know that it simply won't work with many of the current crowd - but as you say, there will at least be some 'moral superiority' via those actions, and then if you cite just about every bolting guide in existence to back up your claim (see the few I quoted earlier for instance) they will hopefully apologise and remove the offending bolts themselves . . . yeah, right, sure, and then they'll solo it . .. .

uwhp510
11/04/2013
10:03:32 AM
On 10/04/2013 JMK wrote:
>Yes kachoong has anchor bolt at bottom but this does not change the climb.

Well it did for me last time I was on it. By the way its not the anchor, its the first piece that you clip off the ledge at the start.
simey
11/04/2013
10:54:58 AM
On 10/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>My leading theory is that it's to facilitate quick "sport trad" days by Nati locals who don't seem to believe in full days at the crag anymore (but still want get as many pitches as possible done between their morning road ride and the afternoon windsurfing session)

Days in Nati aren't always along the lines of... morning road ride - climb - windsurfing

Sometimes it is...
morning climb - footy - windsurf

Or...
morning windsurf - climb - swim in the river

Or (my favourite)...
morning skateboard - footy - beer

Wendy
11/04/2013
8:00:04 PM
you forgot the cups of tea.

My agenda is more likely to go:

Tea or coffee times about 3. Climb. Swim if it's hot. More tea if it's not. Alcoholic beverage suited to the season if we've actually stayed out long enough to make it to booze oclock.


Miguel75
11/04/2013
8:29:21 PM
On 10/04/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:
...SNIP...
>At a minimum you'll have moral superiority, and I suspect you'll have
>actual support if some scallywag comes along and bolts your piton tagged
>project.

Excellent idea. I've taken to weeing on my projects. Whilst it doesn't really deter other climbers from snaking my line, it does make me laugh. Especially the look on my belayers face while I'm 10m up;)

P.S. It's good to see scallywag getting more use. Well played.

Macciza
11/04/2013
9:57:48 PM
Unfortunately even the 'higher moral ground' is seemingly not respected either and gets abused and vandalised by many of these perpetrators . . .

In Rowans case, despite knowing the relevant facts, i.e. that Rowans line had already been bolted and chopped and the solution agreed upon by those concerned, Dh Saunders continued to provoke the issue, and then further antagonise the situation by re-ringing the line and started working it as yet another of one his numerous projects. And belligerently stating that he would simply re-ring it if Rowan chopped the rings, which clearly Rowan believes would happen. So caught between 'love of the rock and a hard liner' it now seems that Rowan has decided that he may not take any further action in this regard, as it would be a 'pyrrhic victory' and his morality does not really want to see the rock defaced 'ad infinitum', nor to give any ammunition in terms of personal conflict with Saunders, which is probably what Dh Saunders wants inorder to bolster his position - which would then be that 'Rowan chopped my rings therefore Rowan is at fault, not him - despite the logical ludicrousness of this as an 'argument'. Remember that he really had no investment in the climb up until the point that he decided to take matters into his own hand to revolt it.

So even now with Rowan still holding the moral higher ground there seems to be no impetus on the part of Saunders to change his tune and seek any sort of 'compromise or convergence' to find a solution, which would require him to remove at least some of the unwarranted rings. And yet he would probably be 'crying foul' if anyone were to dare attempt to climb one of his numerous sport projects that he has scattered around the mountains, even the ones that he rarely gets on.

So where does that leave the rest of us? Something MUST be done about his actions! If no action is taken to censure his actions then no doubt he will continue in such actions and others will possibly use this incident as 'leverage' to support their future transgressions as well, and the rock and the climbing community will suffer further debasement. And that is simply unacceptable! But what 'could and should' be done? 'Name and Shame' may have some sort of effect but that seems unlikey; 'Chopping' his rings may lead to him simply replacing them, and he may simply continue to replace them, or he may get the message and desist from further bolting, but how much damage will be done through that course of action is anyones guess . . .

I unfortunately have very little time to take action on this matter and have my own battles at the moment anyway, but fortunately there are people in the mountains on the right side in both these situations who will hopefully act on our individual behalf's in rectifying the situations. And hopefully some of the fence-sitting bottom-dwellers may actually reflect on this matter and adopt some sort of stance against the bolting of potential trad/mixed lines; or will they have to have it become more personal for them before they act? Like when something they are wanting to climb gets altered in some way that is unacceptable to them via either bolting or de-bolting . . .

Basically some of the current wave of ringbolting has gone too far and the tide is going to turn eventually, people should start considering their personal position on some of these ethical questions because sooner or later they are going to have to, because sooner or later it will end up affecting them directly . . .

ajfclark
11/04/2013
10:09:48 PM
> And hopefully some of the fence-sitting bottom-dwellers may actually reflect on this matter and adopt some sort of stance against the bolting of potential trad/mixed lines

Insulting those that you wish to gain support from is not viewed as a great tactic by most people.

Macciza
11/04/2013
11:03:16 PM
I am sorry if people 'take offence' from that statement as it is not meant to offend, that lies in their interpretation more than my intended meaning, imho . . . ( but I guess I see your point)
Bottom-dwellers is used more as a (LeBreton-esque) 'turn of phrase' than any particular judgement value - there just seem to be many 'climbing consumers' who take no particular stance on these issues, and contribute little to either the debate or in terms of action apart from climbing stuff that others have done . . .

Hopefully it makes them consider their position a bit more and reach a personal perspective on it (rather then simply be offended by me and take an anti-macca position) . ..

So sorry, to those who may be offended, but please try to not take the phrasing in a personal, negative way - just remove/reinterpret it as best you can . . .
rightarmbad
11/04/2013
11:23:12 PM
Just chop them, and keep chopping them, eventually he will run out of good hole placements.
It's only one route, fill the holes, send the message that chopping will always happen.

Viewpoint Buttress has been bolted/retro bolted a few times, they were always chopped, it stopped.

As you have said, bolt creep has gone too far, the line needs to be drawn.
It's like a teenager testing their limits, if you always renege in the end and allow them to get away with what they want, they will run all over you.

At some point it's going to be ugly, better before too many more bolts go in, than later.
Stop it now.

Snacks
12/04/2013
8:00:44 AM
I like it better when choppers just chopped bolts. I'd suggest you stop justifying yourselves to all these people...

Develop an ethic that you can stick by eg. chop bolts on climbs where natural protection should predominate (Perhaps err on the side of bolts where it is only one or two bolts in a whole line of bolts).

And leave it at that.


Unless: Where a safety risk might occur (like at Point Perp) a notice should be made to as many climbing forums etc. as possible to cover yourself (and the possibly unknowing victim).

What happened at the point could turn fairly ugly, if say someone was to call rescue services as a result of not being able to climb out etc. (Yes, they're stupid fault for getting themselves in that situation, I agree...)

But when it becomes known that someone removed safety equipment (bolts) from the cliff face which resulted in a rescue call out, it could be perceived by non-climbers as an intention to cause harm to others and I can't imagine it would bode well for access to Point Perp or how the climbing community is viewed generally.



Generally speaking, I support what you guys are trying to do and I think your efforts would be better spent out on the cliff face chopping rather than spending your time on here justifying yourselves and getting into personal circular arguments.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
12/04/2013
9:17:53 AM
On 10/04/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:
>Next trad project try smashing in a piton with red tape (maybe include a tag with your ph no on it just off the ground).

Phone number? Maybe a photo would be better?
~> Kind of reminds me of a bloke I know who when asked by his daughter if he would be upset if she got a tattoo, replied "Go ahead, no worries, as long as it is a picture of my face and located on your left breast." ~> I gather he wasn't too keen on her latest boyfriend either, so he figured he'd solve both issues at the same time!

The good Dr
12/04/2013
9:20:04 AM
On 11/04/2013 Macciza wrote:
>
>So where does that leave the rest of us? Something MUST be done about
>his actions! If no action is taken to censure his actions then no doubt
>he will continue in such actions and others will possibly use this incident
>as 'leverage' to support their future transgressions as well, and the rock
>and the climbing community will suffer further debasement.

I am sure you have the ability to communicate with Julian directly. In this case it may be more productive than just posting on Chocky all the time.
Ozone
12/04/2013
10:12:32 AM
Ive read through this whole thing now and I'm not a regular poster on chockstone by any stretch, so whoever wrote above somewhere that its a good litmus test is right I'd say. There's often a lot if bitching and personal attacks that go on which is probably a reason I refrain most of the time. However, I think this has been one of the better threads I've read, and a lot less of the unnescessary slagging that seems to be common. Good thread rowan, cheers.
I've never bolted nor chopped, but just by way of filling in the blanks what's involved in the process of 'chopping'? Pure curiosity.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
12/04/2013
10:46:03 AM
On 12/04/2013 Ozone wrote:
>I've never bolted nor chopped, but just by way of filling in the blanks
>what's involved in the process of 'chopping'? Pure curiosity.
>
There is a good description (with photos), in this trip report on Chockstone.
Olbert
12/04/2013
11:39:18 AM
It really depends on the type of bolt. Though I had threaded bolts that could be unscrewed. The use of a crowbar would have been necessary had this not been the case.

Also they can be ground off with an angle grinder.

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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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