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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
First in best dressed?
stugang
9/04/2013
10:16:19 PM
Best thing about this story is that rowan and his friend have made up after a couple of misunderstandings - lesson should be that talking to someone directly is the way to resolve specific situations. Also, I think rowans suggestion of thinking about a system to ensure that "trad projects" are not engulfed by a wave of rabid bolters is a good one, and one that should be seriously considered while there is still a population of climbers that can see both sides of the fence.

Worst thing on this story is that it isn't over, there is obviously something unresolved between julian and rowan. Surely you guys can talk without getting bogged down in arguing over the nasty texts you sent each other? BTW it is not clear from what has been posted as to why JS really cares so much ( I don't want an answer to this if it would hinder a resolution to the situation).


P.S. Macca can you just shut up on this thread. For once there was an actual live situation, that was bringing together some "convergence" of views from people from both sides of the supposed "fence". ...Then you come in and make it all about you.

Macciza
10/04/2013
12:53:32 AM
On 9/04/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:
>Best thing about this story is that rowan and his friend have made up after a couple of misunderstandings - lesson should be that talking to someone directly is the way to resolve specific situations.

I agree here - yes people should talk directly to solve issues, unfortunately there are many who simply refuse to do so . . .

>Also, I think rowans suggestion of thinking about a system to ensure that "trad projects" are not engulfed by a wave of rabid bolters is a good one, and one that should
>be seriously considered while there is still a population of climbers that can see both sides of the fence.

Kind of agree here, but are you serious? 'Think about a system'? There is already one that has been in place for decades to the point that it used be accepted as 'unwritten law' that has since been actually become 'written' in numerous documents and bolting polices/guidelines etc. Do you really think there is need to re-invent the 'ethics' that have existed for so long ? Particularly as it would seem they want to shift things further away from what is already established, yet ignored . . .

> Worst thing on this story is that it isn't over, there is obviously something unresolved between julian and rowan. Surely you guys can talk without getting bogged down in arguing over the nasty texts you sent each other?
BTW it is not clear from what has been posted as to why JS really cares so much ( I don't want an answer to this if it would hinder a resolution to the situation).

There is actually a lot of other 'unresolved' stuff between many people mentioned in this thread, and many others who aren't, and many other routes/variants involved. There is more to it then just this one incident, as the locals know . . .

>P.S. Macca can you just shut up on this thread. For once there was an actual live situation, that was bringing together some "convergence" of views from people from both sides of the supposed "fence". ...
>Then you come in and make it all about you.

Why? I am at least (semi)- local and friends with the aggrieved party who I am sure welcomes the support. And how do you see 'convergence' - what, Rowan deciding to not do what he truly believes he should do because of Dh Saunders threat to simply replace the bolts ad infinitum regardless of really having no rights in the matter whatsoever? So ethical trad climbers being forced to give in yet again and accept a 'lesser experience' is the 'acceptable' outcome? I really think the line needs to be drawn to reinforce the standard for both the current overzealous bolters and those who will follow use this as an example to support their own actions . . .
All about me? Don't see how you work that one out? Most of what I have posted here has been quotes from various groups that support the 'not bolting' side . ..
Yes, a minor bit 'may' have been (about me) but it was really just balancing out the attacks that were being made on Rowan by uninvolved third parties dredging up the past . .

BlankSlab
Online Now
10/04/2013
9:48:04 AM
On 10/04/2013 Macciza wrote:
>On 9/04/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:
>
>>Also, I think rowans suggestion of thinking about a system to ensure
>that "trad projects" are not engulfed by a wave of rabid bolters is a good
>one, and one that should
>>be seriously considered while there is still a population of climbers
>that can see both sides of the fence.
>
>Kind of agree here, but are you serious? 'Think about a system'? There
>is already one that has been in place for decades to the point that it
>used be accepted as 'unwritten law' that has since been actually become
>'written' in numerous documents and bolting polices/guidelines etc. Do
>you really think there is need to re-invent the 'ethics' that have existed
>for so long ? Particularly as it would seem they want to shift things further
>away from what is already established, yet ignored . . .
>
I think the real issue is there is a dissconnect between the old and the new way of thinking Im not sure what the plan for approaching this should be but Macciza has been aproaching it in his own way and has been doing something about it that has worked in a few instances (has pissed some people off along the way but so have the bolters). I think getting something done is better then a lot of us sitting back and doing nothing about it.
I would have a bet that 90% of the climbing community dont visit this forum and partake in the discussions. Half of them again probably don't care about climbing ethics and history and just want to climb. So who is it up to to promote awarness of ethics of areas existing and new. Is it the clubs such as the Sydney Rockies, VCC and the uni mountianeering clubs, the magazines and various other publications about, the guide book writers, the crag?

I think we can continuly have these discussion on here but until its taken up and activly promoted as an issue in our climbing mediea i think it will just continue along the lines of "who retroed this, who bolted that sweet looking trad project" and resulting in chopy chop chop.

Snacks
10/04/2013
10:01:28 AM
On 10/04/2013 Batey wrote:
>I would have a bet that 90% of the climbing community dont visit this
>forum and partake in the discussions.

I'd bet it's closer to 99%
dalai
10/04/2013
10:21:52 AM
On 10/04/2013 Snacks wrote:
>On 10/04/2013 Batey wrote:
>>I would have a bet that 90% of the climbing community dont visit this
>>forum and partake in the discussions.
>
>I'd bet it's closer to 99%

There are 60,670 climbers in Australia?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/04/2013
10:32:34 AM
On 10/04/2013 Snacks wrote:
>On 10/04/2013 Batey wrote:
>>I would have a bet that 90% of the climbing community dont visit this
>>forum and partake in the discussions.
>
>I'd bet it's closer to 99%

I am not going to try and quantify whatever%, but can contribute a couple of observations I have noted over my involvement of the life of Chockstone.

Regardless of the issues that Chockstone reflects from time to time, the readership is actually much larger than the postings to it. This is direct from non-login hits, and also indirect by the word of mouth generated amongst those who do read Chocky.

Additionally just because many registered User-ID's don't post, doesn't mean they are not influenced by what they read here.
Personally, when I read a contribution from a 'seldom-posts' identity, I take a greater interest in what they are saying, because if an issue gets to them enough to want to post about it, then that means it is important to them at least, and by default perhaps more greatly represents the 'silent majority'. The vocal regulars by comparison, are pretty well known for their views and flavour so sometimes miss out on the impact that they could have...

Regarding media; I have noticed Rock Mag picks up on things from time to time on this site and rehashes them down the line, which further gets the issues 'out there'.

What is with % anyway? The politicians all hang off every poll no matter how minor (regardless of their denials about it), because they know that the sentiments expressed occur for a reason that they try to identify with or influence as the case may be!
~> There is no greater litmus test of climbers thoughts (particularly near-real-time), in Australia than Chockstone. One need only review the stats on the other States equivalent websites to verify that.


BlankSlab
Online Now
10/04/2013
11:13:51 AM
On 10/04/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 10/04/2013 Snacks wrote:
>>On 10/04/2013 Batey wrote:
>>>I would have a bet that 90% of the climbing community dont visit this
>>>forum and partake in the discussions.
>>
>>I'd bet it's closer to 99%
>
>I am not going to try and quantify whatever%, but can contribute a couple
>of observations I have noted over my involvement of the life of Chockstone.
>
>Regardless of the issues that Chockstone reflects from time to time, the
>readership is actually much larger than the postings to it.
>This is direct from non-login hits, and also indirect by the word of mouth
>generated amongst those who do read Chocky.
>
>Additionally just because many registered User-ID's don't post, doesn't
>mean they are not influenced by what they read here.
>Personally, when I read a contribution from a 'seldom-posts' identity,
>I take a greater interest in what they are saying, because if an issue
>gets to them enough to want to post about it, then that means it is important
>to them at least, and by default perhaps more greatly represents the 'silent
>majority'. The vocal regulars by comparison, are pretty well known for
>their views and flavour so sometimes miss out on the impact that they could
>have...
>
That is certainly a good point an i must admit i tend to take interest in those seldom posts and totally agree with the readership of chocky as you view it. Probably a lot more in line with reality then my opinion and i guess i just took the % figure as a way to express that there is something missing.

>Regarding media; I have noticed Rock Mag picks up on things from time
>to time on this site and rehashes them down the line, which further gets
>the issues 'out there'.
>
Things do filter through eventually but not in the way they would have in the past but thats a different issue with the new direction of Rock Mag thats been discussed in other topics.

anyway oppologies to the OP for going slightly off topic. Maybe we should have this discussion in a seporate topic.

JMK
10/04/2013
1:06:35 PM
Mum, mum someone bolted my route! It's not fair. Mum do something

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/04/2013
1:14:00 PM
On 10/04/2013 JMK wrote:
>Mum, mum someone bolted my route! It's not fair. Mum do something

or ...

Mum, mum someone debolted my route! It's not fair. Mum do something?

;-)

JMK
10/04/2013
1:46:25 PM
Absolutely

Macciza
10/04/2013
1:48:05 PM
On 10/04/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 10/04/2013 JMK wrote:
>>Mum, mum someone bolted my route! It's not fair. Mum do something
>
>or ...
>
>Mum, mum someone debolted my route! It's not fair. Mum do something?
>
>;-)

Or F@ck,F@ck, Someone bolted my route! It's not fair! I'm gonna do something . . .
One Day Hero
10/04/2013
2:03:31 PM
Obviously you don't mind either way JMK. All the people who don't mind either way can sit there and do nothing, it's all good. I kinda mind, and I'm interested in hearing about this sort of stuff, because I might just get involved.

I don't reckon Rohan was having a sook at all. He laid out what had happened and how he feels about it. What's the matter with that?

JMK
10/04/2013
2:24:42 PM
No issue with original post or discussion. Subsequent hijacking very whiny. My biggest complaint- people saying they will do something, don't and just continue bleating about it. Eg last time I walked past the retro bolt of the route right of exhibition wall the bolts were still there. So put up or shut up. If the bolts re-appear pull those immediately. A lesson will be learned - it takes time and money to bolt and they will eventually give up and climb a different route.
One Day Hero
10/04/2013
2:35:24 PM
On 10/04/2013 JMK wrote:
>Subsequent hijacking very whiny.

I tend to agree, whiney is not a good look.

spicelab
10/04/2013
4:20:55 PM
On 8/04/2013 rowan wrote:
He sent me a text saying "That is the most derisive and self righteous act I have seen. Pathetic."

If this is an accurate citation it's appalling. Taking their lead from the victimhood displays of Old Rich White Males banging on endlessly about being "under attack", it seems Julian and his ilk have managed to delude themeslves that they haven't in fact driven 99% of the direction of Blueys climbing over the last 15 years, and the folks with the real power are actually the tiny number of scary trad climbers pushing their 'elitist' agenda.

In this topsy-turvy worldview, it's derisive (or divisive, I assume) if even one of 739 new routes is unavailable for sport climbers, leaving something alone is more radical than bolting it, and removing bolts is worse than placing them in all situations. So naturally Rowan is seen as the extreme party in all of this.

I want to make clear that I fully support roughly 80% of the bolting undertaken by all Blueys developers since I started climbing in 1996. I've benefited from it enormously, and it would be immensely hypocritical of me to deny this. But I've never bought the disingenuous horseshit about the nobility of sinking steel into rock, nor claims of persecution from a feeble and dwindling minority of trad climbers.

Rowan, from what you've outlined it sounds like your behaviour has been pretty exemplary, but I agree it's not worth continuing. You'll come out of it looking the better person in the long run.

Macciza
10/04/2013
4:30:18 PM
@JMK - Actually I find your whiny 'trolling' the biggest hijack in this thread! It's seems like you have no real opinion either way - you are not prepared to remove the bolt and probably would not be prepared to replace it if it was removed; but you are prepared to complain about it all the same . . .
I would much rather have an ethical stance (even if circumstances make it difficult to achieve) rather then simply sit on the fence and complain about those who do . . .
I take as much action as I can in the limited time I have - and have actually made several attempts to remedy that particular situation which have fallen through for various reasons . . .
But I do at least try to live up to my principles - if I were still living up there, rather than 100kms away, it would have been done a long time ago. Had hoped some of the more local climbers would have done so by now . . .
Pommy
10/04/2013
5:08:12 PM
If Julian is so keen to sink bolts, there are a couple of his climbs in the Gramps that could do with an extra one or two

JMK
10/04/2013
5:19:36 PM
Macca I have an ethical stance it just is not yours. However, if I feel strongly about something I would act on it eg if I heard someone bolted kachoong I would drive the 1200 km and debolt it. I would not talk about it i would do it . Quite likely someone would beat me to it.
One Day Hero
10/04/2013
5:25:37 PM
Kachoong has a fat ringbolt where the peg used to be (right at the start). When are you leaving? For a while it also had belay bolts at the top and a rap chain 2m to the side of those. I had a sook about it on chocky, and some handy local promptly went and cleaned up the 4 bolts at the top.
simey
10/04/2013
6:56:43 PM
On 10/04/2013 Pommy wrote:
>If Julian is so keen to sink bolts, there are a couple of his climbs in the Gramps that could do with an extra one or two

Its comments like this which is exactly why Chockstone needs a 'like' button.


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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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