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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
First in best dressed?

Macciza
8/04/2013
11:23:42 PM
Hmm
Weird, just had a long exchange of posts with Bundy (Jason Lammers) on his Facebook page about the recent bolting of trad lines at Sublime, then Neil posted something but by the time I got to have a look the whole conversation had disappeared!!
So it seems Neil is now censoring my comments on other peoples Facebooks pages! WTF???

Macciza
8/04/2013
11:24:29 PM
So new Facebook group started , , ,

Introducing BLUE MOUNTAINS TRAD CARE !!
Dedicated to the conservation of trad climbs in the Blue Mountains.

Joining is by application only . . .
rowan
9/04/2013
7:21:05 AM
On 8/04/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>p.s. Without knowing the details I am more in your boat Rowan. If you found
>it, and made it known that you wanted it done as a trad route then I reckon
>you have a pretty strong claim.

I am potentially being unclear. It should be noted that there was an initial communication breakdown between me and the first person who bolted the crack. I thought I had directly mentioned it. But with all the prattling I was doing excitedly showing him the new area the actual comment got confused along the way and there was a mix up.

This lead to the initial bolting and chopping but was subsequently resolved between us. I had obviously not made it clear enough.

This second series of bolts had no confusion around it. They have been placed to antagonise me.

This for me is however is not the most relevant point. I've always been of the belief any route that can go fully on trad (as an obvious line that one can venture up ground up onsight and climb without injury) that has been bolted should be chopped regardlesss of who has claims to it.

But I didn't realise this had been washing around the chockstone forum for the past weeks and can now see that you would all be bored of such conversations

Snacks
9/04/2013
8:17:36 AM
On 9/04/2013 rowan wrote:

>I am potentially being unclear.

Yes, yes you are.

Macciza
9/04/2013
10:37:49 AM
No Rowan it is not unclear . ..

It is a crack, it is a trad line,
People shouldn't bolt cracks, people shouldn't bolt trad lines. .. .

Neils comments were probably meant to antagonise me as he has done the complete opposite of what he is saying himself with my routes at Sublime . . .

Yes that is the relevant part - except for perhaps the 'climb without injury' part - that is function of the climber, not the route. If a route is attempted by someone who is simply not up to the task then they may risk injury but it would be there fault and is not really an argument for it being bolted. Also Australia has (had) a fine reputation for 'mixed routes' using gear where it is possible and keeping bolts to a minimum - this unfortunately seems to have been largely abandoned by many of the people currently bolting. But the preferred end result is going to be the same, due chopping of the bolts!

It is SaferCliffs policy that you DON'T BOLT TRAD!
Will_P
9/04/2013
11:45:27 AM
On 8/04/2013 Macciza wrote:
>So it seems Neil is now censoring my comments on other peoples Facebooks
>pages! WTF???

Dude, you're starting to sound truly paranoid. Maybe give the green a rest and go climbing?
Chris Coghill
9/04/2013
12:09:32 PM
On 8/04/2013 rowan wrote:
.
> To quote Chris Coggil "It's great down there as it's
>not national park so you can cut down as many trees as you want."


By way of clarification... I have not cut down any trees at Elphinstone. This was a completely "tongue-in-cheek" comment that I made at one time (ie, I was being sarcastic!). It has nothing to do with how I feel about the situation.

About the crack down at Pole 28, Neil is right. I had no idea that anybody had tried it before. I went down to belay Neil or bundy and saw the crack. There was no chalk and no signs that it had been tried before. There was quite a bit of loose rock, so I assumed it had never been tried (or cleaned).
I tried it for a little while on trad, even borrowing a 00 Friend from Lee Cossey. After a few days, I became a bit worried that some of my gear was tracking through the crack, so I added a couple of bolts.
Eventually I decided that the route was pretty short and obscure, and I may as well just fully bolt it to fit with all the other funny little sport routes at the crag. I had no idea that anybody else was keen to try it on gear.
To tell the truth, it's probably better as a trad climb... as a sport route it's really pretty short and average, but adding the gear placement and ground fall potential (it's only about 4 metres high) makes it more of an interesting challenge. I'm not really keen to test the gear again, but I'm sure others are.
I have no problems with the route being chopped, just hope it has been done more neatly than you did the Elphinstone one, rowan!
drdeviousii
9/04/2013
1:04:21 PM
you losers need to get a fking life

Macciza
9/04/2013
1:09:43 PM
On 9/04/2013 Chris Coghill wrote:
> I'm not really keen to test the gear again, but I'm sure others are.

That's why you should never have bolted it in the first place! "In Australia, routes that contain natural protection are left as such. Bolted cracks are extremely rare and are very much frowned upon. If you can place gear than leave the climb in its natural state. You may not be able to climb the line placing gear but other future climbers certainly will. Leave trad challenges for the future."

>I have no problems with the route being chopped, just hope it has been
>done more neatly than you did the Elphinstone one, rowan!

This is a ridiculous proposition/'demand' from the perpetrators of original act of bolting!
It is like saying that graffitists have a right to demand that their graffiti be covered up to their specifications - it is illogical!

If either of these two groups is really so concerned about the final result they should go and fix up the mess they created themselves . . .
Or simply not do it in the first place and certainly not complain about about the remedial action required due to their actions . . .
simey
9/04/2013
4:19:54 PM
On 9/04/2013 Macciza wrote:
>On 9/04/2013 Chris Coghill wrote:
>> I'm not really keen to test the gear again, but I'm sure others are.
>
>That's why you should never have bolted it in the first place! "In Australia,
>routes that contain natural protection are left as such. Bolted cracks
>are extremely rare and are very much frowned upon. If you can place gear
>than leave the climb in its natural state. You may not be able to climb
>the line placing gear but other future climbers certainly will. Leave trad
>challenges for the future."

Macca, defining a trad line isn't always clear-cut. Likewise a no-bolts approach can also make for some shitty climbs. Sounds like Chris has a pretty clear understanding of what makes for a good climb and was weighing up a variety of considerations. His actions and comments sound pretty reasonable to me.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
9/04/2013
4:23:56 PM
On 9/04/2013 simey wrote:
>On 9/04/2013 Macciza wrote:
>>On 9/04/2013 Chris Coghill wrote:
>>> I'm not really keen to test the gear again, but I'm sure others are.
>>
>>That's why you should never have bolted it in the first place! "In Australia,
>>routes that contain natural protection are left as such. Bolted cracks
>>are extremely rare and are very much frowned upon. If you can place gear
>>than leave the climb in its natural state. You may not be able to climb
>>the line placing gear but other future climbers certainly will. Leave
>trad
>>challenges for the future."
>
>Macca, defining a trad line isn't always clear-cut. Likewise a no-bolts
>approach can also make for some shitty climbs. Sounds like Chris has a
>pretty clear understanding of what makes for a good climb and was weighing
>up a variety of considerations. His actions and comments sound pretty reasonable
>to me.
>
Yes, but mixed lines generally only bolt the otherwise unprotectable bits when the runouts become unacceptable to the FA'ist, and this did not happen on the route in question. ☺
simey
9/04/2013
4:50:25 PM
On 9/04/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Yes, but mixed lines generally only bolt the otherwise unprotectable bits
>when the runouts become unacceptable to the FA'ist, and this did not happen
>on the route in question. ☺

There are so many considerations with establishing routes and so many ways of going about it, that defining what is right or wrong beforehand is damn near impossible. Take a route like Sport Crack (26) at Stapylton. It follows a roof crack with a line of bolts courtesy of Andy Pollitt who discovered the line. Although it could be climbed on natural gear, in my opinion that route is a lot more appealing with the bolts (for a bunch of reasons). Obviously Andy thought the same thing (he could have easily led it on trad gear). Peter Croft (who repeated it shortly after and who also could have easily led it on natural gear) also didn't think the bolts were out of place on that particular route.

Bolting near cracks should definitely be the exception rather than the norm however. It sounds like Rowan and Chris on these respective routes though have the experience and knowledge to make pretty good judgement calls on such matters.


Macciza
9/04/2013
5:02:03 PM
On 9/04/2013 simey wrote:

>Bolting near cracks should definitely be the exception rather than the
>norm however.
>

Unfortunately up here in the Blueies it is becoming the norm! Being done by people who obviously can't step up to the challenge of protecting themselves with natural pro or unprepared to take the perceived risk that may be involved and so they are bolting the shit out of anything and everything. Chris has put bolts one foot away from bomber gear on a 40 year old established Grade 14 trad route at Sublime Point, totally missing the obvious line, which would have actually needed artificial protection, 2 metres to the left . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
9/04/2013
5:11:48 PM
On 9/04/2013 simey wrote:
>Bolting near cracks should definitely be the exception rather than the
>norm however. It sounds like Rowan and Chris on these respective routes
>though have the experience and knowledge to make pretty good judgement
>calls on such matters.
>
I am not trying to be antagonistic but it seems to my reading of this thread, that the flaw in your last statement is the fact that those gents disagreed initially in their judgement call on bolts in the route in question, and further, that Rown (like many others of us), disagrees with the subsequent re-retro-ing of it.
~> It is ironic that Chris now is not fussed about the initial removal of the initial bolts!

I agree that bolting near cracks should definitely be the exception rather than the norm, and even then the exceptions would have to be rather unusual to warrant such action.

Macciza
9/04/2013
5:15:38 PM
On 9/04/2013 simey wrote:
> Macca, defining a trad line isn't always clear-cut.
Check out my various quotes above, there are some pretty easy to follow guidelines though - It's not exactly Rocket Surgery . . .
In the fine tradition of freeing 'artificial aids' from climbs the logical conclusion is that if a climb can be done on gear then the 'artificial aid bolts' should not be there . ..

> His actions and comments sound pretty reasonable to me.

Do you mean in regards to bolting the roof crack he was not 'able to climb . . . placing gear' or his insistence that people repair his mess to his satisfaction?
If these people are so concerned about how the rock will look after their ringbolts get chopped maybe they should think twice, or three times or more, before they place them!
If someone defaces something I can not see how they have any claim to insist on the manner of it's repair. If anything they should fix the mess that they created . . .
rowan
9/04/2013
6:23:14 PM
On 9/04/2013 Chris Coghill wrote:
>On 8/04/2013 rowan wrote:
>.
>> To quote Chris Coggil "It's great down there as it's
>>not national park so you can cut down as many trees as you want."
>
>
>By way of clarification... I have not cut down any trees at Elphinstone.
>This was a completely "tongue-in-cheek" comment that I made at one time
>(ie, I was being sarcastic!). It has nothing to do with how I feel about
>the situation.
>
>About the crack down at Pole 28, Neil is right. I had no idea that anybody
>had tried it before. I went down to belay Neil or bundy and saw the crack.
>There was no chalk and no signs that it had been tried before. There was
>quite a bit of loose rock, so I assumed it had never been tried (or cleaned).
>
> I tried it for a little while on trad, even borrowing a 00 Friend from
>Lee Cossey. After a few days, I became a bit worried that some of my gear
>was tracking through the crack, so I added a couple of bolts.
>Eventually I decided that the route was pretty short and obscure, and
>I may as well just fully bolt it to fit with all the other funny little
>sport routes at the crag. I had no idea that anybody else was keen to try
>it on gear.
>To tell the truth, it's probably better as a trad climb... as a sport
>route it's really pretty short and average, but adding the gear placement
>and ground fall potential (it's only about 4 metres high) makes it more
>of an interesting challenge. I'm not really keen to test the gear again,
>but I'm sure others are.
>I have no problems with the route being chopped, just hope it has been
>done more neatly than you did the Elphinstone one, rowan!

Sorry if you had nothing to do with the cutting of trees down there. I was bummed that so many were chopped and now it will turn to mud. I think more highly of you if you had nothng to do with that.

You are right Chris. It is a messy job. It is on the crack at pole 28 too. I have intended to clean them both up but havn't had the same zest as the first time round on them. Maybe it has worked removing the bolts from the pole 28 crack as you have now come round and agree it is better as a trad route. (I'm not sure why your gear came out because I fell off all over the thing going ground up each time and all the gear held. Maybe I have more modern cams.)

I think the removal of the bolts on the line at Elphinstone has been a fail. I don't think I will remove them again now I have had a day to think about it. Dr Julian Saunders claims if I remove them he will just replace them. If this were to become the case I think only the rock climb suffers. I will just clean up the ones I have already removed properly and climb the route on gear pretending the bolts are not there. This is a lesser experience on the climb but will have less impact in the long run.

The real shame will be if this route sets the standard for generations to come. I just think this is a backwards step in the way you should approach new routing in general. I don't think it is about making things accessible for the crowds but accepting the challenge presented. For me the challenge presented was obvious you could climb it with out the need for defacing the rock in any way.
Olbert
9/04/2013
6:33:45 PM
On 9/04/2013 rowan wrote:
>On 9/04/2013 Chris Coghill wrote:
>>On 8/04/2013 rowan wrote:
>>.
>>> To quote Chris Coggil "It's great down there as it's
>>>not national park so you can cut down as many trees as you want."
>>
>>
>>By way of clarification... I have not cut down any trees at Elphinstone.
>>This was a completely "tongue-in-cheek" comment that I made at one time
>>(ie, I was being sarcastic!). It has nothing to do with how I feel about
>>the situation.
>>
>>About the crack down at Pole 28, Neil is right. I had no idea that anybody
>>had tried it before. I went down to belay Neil or bundy and saw the crack.
>>There was no chalk and no signs that it had been tried before. There
>was
>>quite a bit of loose rock, so I assumed it had never been tried (or cleaned).
>>
>> I tried it for a little while on trad, even borrowing a 00 Friend from
>>Lee Cossey. After a few days, I became a bit worried that some of my
>gear
>>was tracking through the crack, so I added a couple of bolts.
>>Eventually I decided that the route was pretty short and obscure, and
>>I may as well just fully bolt it to fit with all the other funny little
>>sport routes at the crag. I had no idea that anybody else was keen to
>try
>>it on gear.
>>To tell the truth, it's probably better as a trad climb... as a sport
>>route it's really pretty short and average, but adding the gear placement
>>and ground fall potential (it's only about 4 metres high) makes it more
>>of an interesting challenge. I'm not really keen to test the gear again,
>>but I'm sure others are.
>>I have no problems with the route being chopped, just hope it has been
>>done more neatly than you did the Elphinstone one, rowan!
>
>Sorry if you had nothing to do with the cutting of trees down there. I
>was bummed that so many were chopped and now it will turn to mud. I think
>more highly of you if you had nothng to do with that.
>
>You are right Chris. It is a messy job. It is on the crack at pole 28
>too. I have intended to clean them both up but havn't had the same zest
>as the first time round on them. Maybe it has worked removing the bolts
>from the pole 28 crack as you have now come round and agree it is better
>as a trad route. (I'm not sure why your gear came out because I fell off
>all over the thing going ground up each time and all the gear held. Maybe
>I have more modern cams.)
>
>I think the removal of the bolts on the line at Elphinstone has been a
>fail. I don't think I will remove them again now I have had a day to think
>about it. Dr Julian Saunders claims if I remove them he will just replace
>them. If this were to become the case I think only the rock climb suffers.
>I will just clean up the ones I have already removed properly and climb
>the route on gear pretending the bolts are not there. This is a lesser
>experience on the climb but will have less impact in the long run.
>
>The real shame will be if this route sets the standard for generations
>to come. I just think this is a backwards step in the way you should approach
>new routing in general. I don't think it is about making things accessible
>for the crowds but accepting the challenge presented. For me the challenge
>presented was obvious you could climb it with out the need for defacing
>the rock in any way.

Nooooo - maintain the rage!
rowan
9/04/2013
6:49:57 PM
On 9/04/2013 Olbert wrote:
>
>Nooooo - maintain the rage!

I'm not happy with the situation. I'm sure if someone else feels the same as I do they could take it upon themselves to remove them. But if I personally do it, I believe it has become a personal vendetta against me now and only the rock will suffer.
Mike Bee
9/04/2013
9:20:20 PM
On 9/04/2013 rowan wrote:
>Dr Julian Saunders claims if I remove them he will just replace
>them.

If thats true, then that is utterly pathetic, IMO.
One Day Hero
9/04/2013
9:21:49 PM
I have heard tell of an organisation which may be able to assist with your delicate negotiation. Apparently in 1972 they were sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped a military stockade to the Queanbeyan underground. Today they survive as choppers of fortune. If no one else can help, maybe you can hire the DCA-Team.

Daah-dah-dah Duh-da-da-da-da

Edit - sorry, I know it's a crap joke, couldn't help myself.

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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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