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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 110
Author
Sport climbers - why don't you climb trad?

nmonteith
27/01/2013
11:12:42 AM
A pretty simple question really. I am interested to know why some climbers who have been climbing for many years have never lead on trad, or have abandoned trad altogether in their later years. There are so many great trad crags in Australia - Arapiles, Grampians, Moonarie, Frog Buttress, Point Point, Ben Lommond... I can't imagine not being able to climb at these amazing areas! I'm not interested in hearing hypotheticals from trad climbers - but reasons from actual sport climbers themselves.

rodw
27/01/2013
11:17:30 AM
I never really enjoyed trad, to much faffing about for me..haven't placed wiggleys in years..and with limited time to get out climbing I'm only gonna do stuff I like to do....but seriously why even ask the question...who gives shit what type of climbing people like to do..people do climbing for many different reasons and with that prefer and do it in many different styles.

nmonteith
27/01/2013
11:38:37 AM
On 27/01/2013 rodw wrote:
>but seriously why even ask the question...who
>gives shit what type of climbing people like to do..people do climbing
>for many different reasons and with that prefer and do it in many different
>styles.

I'm not interested in a slanging match about what is better etc etc (I'll leave that up to Macca and ODH) - I just like hearing other peoples reasons - as said there is many reasons! I was brought up trad climbing as there wasn't any sport climbing in Queensland in the early 90s. There wasn't an option! These days I find myself mostly sport climbing when in NSW, but doing a lot more trad when I head to other spots in Australia and OS. As you said I think convenience and limited time is the main reason I sport climb when at home.

Macciza
Online Now
27/01/2013
1:53:47 PM
On 27/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm not interested in a slanging match about what is better etc etc

Maybe not, but you do come across as 'agent provocateur' on occasions . . .

Not everything was spurt climbing in NSW in the early 90's either. Shipley had a lot of mixed routes, carrots and gear, that got retro'd, probably before you got there . . . As did many other local crags that have since been retro'd as well. NarrowNeck had no rings, except for the curtain hangers in the roof - 'Strange Car . . '?

But back to your question - I think it is generally that they have no nuts, or friends, and so are basically incapable of doing it ... ;~}
Also I think they're more interested in the numbers then the experience, and they simply cannot push themselves on trad (mostly because they can't simply 'dog' up the line . . .
I also think many have started in the gyms and have a very different view of 'the great outdoors', think carrots are dangerous and Bluies trad even more so . . .

An equally interesting question might be ' "Why don't spurt climbers try to onsight things anymore?"
It seems to be a dying art these days, in fact 'leading' in general seems to have become a dog affair to 'put the draws on' before attempting to climb . . . To my mind if the draws are on, then you're following, aren't you??

I do still climb some sport but increasing the newer routes are simply so uninspiring in terms of 'line' and so disappointing in terms of 'bad ringbolting' that I am less interested in doing it
Trad climbing is simply so much more enjoyable for me then 'convenience cragging' . . .

PS. I don't actually think many of the potential respondents will even know their reasons why, or will simply lie to both themselves and others about their reasons . . .
Dr Nick
27/01/2013
2:16:47 PM
Maybe the question's not aimed at me, but basically because so much of the fun climbing in Sydney is badly or not protected on natural gear, and it seems silly to have 5 rings and 1 oddball piece of natural gear. Sport climbing makes sense in these conditions.

But I did climb trad last year, and expect to do so this year. There are plenty of good trad routes out there, but there are even more good sport routes.

nmonteith
27/01/2013
2:22:38 PM
On 27/01/2013 Macciza wrote:
>Not everything was spurt climbing in NSW in the early 90's either. Shipley
>had a lot of mixed routes, carrots and gear, that got retro'd, probably
>before you got there . . .

I actually did climb at Shipley well before the Pircher retrolution, I think my first trip was 1992. Led a bunch of stuff with cams in horizontals and horrible looking carrots. Same goes for Thompsons Point, I certainly remember doing a bunch of the classics when they were still carroted and partially trad protected - 1993? I am intrigued that this wholesale retrobolting is glossed over in current guides.

sbm
27/01/2013
2:23:40 PM
I was interested to find out that a girl who'd joined our uni club from Victoria had never climbed a sport route. She'd also never climbed anything harder than grade 15. I guess that's what having Mt Arapiles does to you.

I feel that would be nearly impossible to climb for a couple of years in the Blueys and be the same. If you restrict yourself to fairly safe, beginner friendly, well-travelled, classic trad climbs easier than grade 15 you end up with a pretty small number (mostly at Piddo?). Everyone climbs 18+ and clips bolts because that's simply what the majority of the good climbing requires.

Speaking as a young noob, I got into trad climbing because I appreciate the ethics, and, well, there was climbing I wanted to do that needs gear. I like crack climbing.

rodw
27/01/2013
2:42:33 PM
On 27/01/2013 Macciza wrote:

>PS. I don't actually think many of the potential respondents will even
>know their reasons why, or will simply lie to both themselves and others
>about their reasons . . .

Lol.....so people don't really know what they think???...unless its you and then your the all knowing one

davidn
27/01/2013
2:47:42 PM
It's all to do with the work (mental and physical) involved, let's be honest. And so what?

Trad climbing is like a home cooked Christmas lunch. Sport climbing is like eating McDonalds. Bouldering's like having a chip sandwich.

Trying to equate one or the other with being a better person is a pretty big stretch in my view Macciza ;)

sbm
27/01/2013
2:49:08 PM
On 27/01/2013 Dr Nick wrote:
> basically because so much of
>the fun climbing in Sydney is badly or not protected on natural gear, and
>it seems silly to have 5 rings and 1 oddball piece of natural gear. Sport
>climbing makes sense in these conditions.

Another thing, in the last month or so I've met a few climbers who claim to flat out not trust trad gear. Or think falling on trad gear is suicide. Usually citing some gear-ripping groundfall accident a friend had as evidence that cams don't work.

My favourite was the guy who was going to lead Long Line Of Leanings at Barrenjoey without cams. "It's really scary up the top, the bolt's a really long way below!" "Uh, you know it's a mixed route? We have a rack, want to borrow it?" "Oh no, I don't trust cams!" So, you're just going to run it out instead. Huh. I'm sure these people are great climbers, but you need to research and learn some more skills!

This attitude is worrying. I've taken falls on gear. My friends have taken falls on gear Including at Barrenjoey and in the Blue Mountains. Hell, at the moment I have a grade 21+ project on Hawkesbury sandstone that's all gear that we've fallen on a bunch. We don't buy and carry around all this gear as f#$%ing lucky charms. If you place it properly, test it, aid and downclimb when necessary etc, it WORKS.

nmonteith
27/01/2013
3:13:23 PM
Some great insights SBM!
tor.lattimore
27/01/2013
3:48:20 PM
People who learn to climb at the Arapiles have it easy. No-where else can you have such a fun day out, climbing so many pitches of grade 12 bliss while learning to place gear. It's about as close to sport climbing as you can get while placing gear. After learning to place gear there you can move on to less forgiving crags with fewer easy routes and still have a good time.

In the ACT, the closest trad cliff is Boroomba, where the climbs are more spread out and even the few easier climbs are harder than Bard. Pt Perp is great, but not a good place to learn. The bluies are already 4 hours away and even there the low-grade trad routes just aren't as accessible/good as they are at the Arapiles.

Searching for 3-star trade routes with grade <= 15 on the Australian route register leads to 10 climbs scattered around NSW (2 with the danger sign and mostly single pitch). The same search in VIC leads to 19 routes, mostly multi-pitch and within walking distance of each other.

All of this leads to a huge divergence in skill level between trad and sport climbing (because of the gym), which means people suddenly have the choice between a good sport route, of which there are many, or an "ok" trad route that will take much longer to find. No surprise that most new climbers, including myself, usually opt for the former.








Macciza
Online Now
27/01/2013
3:53:46 PM
On 27/01/2013 rodw wrote:
>...unless its you
>and then your the all knowing one

How you read this into my comments is beyond me? Unless you think you're all-knowing . . .

I simply think that most of them don't really give a great deal of thought to their reason
Or simply parrot the 'it's safer and more convenient' (muntered) mantra . . . based on 'what', I don't know . . .

davidn
27/01/2013
3:58:19 PM
Not sure that's really fair Tor. I think (predominately) trad climbers generally give out far fewer stars than sport climbers. Pretty much the whole ACT Granite was written with the approach that if you wouldn't walk over hot coals while being subjected to a whipping to get to it, it doesn't deserve a star. 3 stars means you'd give up your shot at heaven (or whatever reward your particular religion offers) for it.

IMO people will most often give stars to a route when it's at their limit - maybe that's why sport climbers give out more, because you can be closer to your limit. Which is a big part of why many lower graded routes are great but have no stars. You tend to forget something that's easy.

BTW, there are closer trad cliffs and tors than Booroomba for north-siders. (and how's the shoulder??)

sbm
27/01/2013
4:07:14 PM
On 27/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote:
>IMO people will most often give stars to a route when it's at their limit
>- maybe that's why sport climbers give out more, because you can be closer
>to your limit. Which is a big part of why many lower graded routes are
>great but have no stars. You tend to forget something that's easy.
>

Good point, I tend to agree.

pmonks
27/01/2013
4:13:20 PM
On 27/01/2013 rodw wrote:
>On 27/01/2013 Macciza wrote:
>
>>PS. I don't actually think many of the potential respondents will even
>>know their reasons why, or will simply lie to both themselves and others
>>about their reasons . . .
>
>Lol.....so people don't really know what they think???

Plenty of people know what they think but lie about it for one reason or another - peer pressure, wanting to be perceived as "hardcore" or "cool" or whatever. In my experience those are the people who either have an epiphany (rare) or leave the sport after a relatively short stint (common).
tor.lattimore
27/01/2013
4:29:48 PM
On 27/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote:
>Not sure that's really fair Tor. I think (predominately) trad climbers
>generally give out far fewer stars than sport climbers.

The numbers don't seem to depend that much on stars. In any case, my point wasn't how few starred trad climbs there are in NSW compared to sport climbs. It was that compared to VIC, the accessibility/compactness/number of trad climbs is pretty small.

Actually there are almost no three starred low-grade (<15) sport routes in NSW, but climbers quickly progress to being able to climb much harder (sport) routes, of which there are many. Essentially there is an easy progression into sport climbing in NSW via gyms, but getting into trad climbing is a lot more difficult and less fun here than it is in VIC.

Where in ACT/NSW can I, a beginner trad leader, go and climb 10 fun pitches of easy trad on good rock? Preferably multi-pitch.

> (and how's the shoulder??)

Slowly slowly :( Maybe in a couple of months it'll be good enough to climb a bit.

nmonteith
27/01/2013
5:10:45 PM
On 27/01/2013 tor.lattimore wrote:
>Where in ACT/NSW can I, a beginner trad leader, go and climb 10 fun pitches
>of easy trad on good rock? Preferably multi-pitch.

The Warrumbungles comes to mind - but that is a heck of a long way from most of us in NSW.
tor.lattimore
27/01/2013
5:35:00 PM
On 27/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>On 27/01/2013 tor.lattimore wrote:
>>Where in ACT/NSW can I, a beginner trad leader, go and climb 10 fun pitches
>>of easy trad on good rock? Preferably multi-pitch.
>
>The Warrumbungles comes to mind - but that is a heck of a long way from
>most of us in NSW.

I've never been climbing in the bungles and it is a long way from Canberra. This from the Sydney rockies site suggests it might not be a great place to learn trad though...

"Climbing in the Bungles is a fairly serious affair however, with occassional poor rock, poor protection, difficult route finding and long climbs all part of the game."

That doesn't sound a lot like the Bard. I've only been to the Arapiles once, by which point I was already OK at sport climbing. I followed a few experienced trad climbers and spent the rest of the time practicing leading on stupidly easy, but grin inducing climbs. I've never been anywhere since that offered such a fun fast-track route to learning to place gear.

Since that trip I've been a lot more keen on trad and have gotten on a few of the easier local routes. I'm pretty sure I learned more in those two weeks at the Araps than I could have done anywhere else though, and if I could go there every weekend for a year then I'd probably like trad climbing even more.

Wendy
27/01/2013
5:36:16 PM
On 27/01/2013 tor.lattimore wrote:
>On 27/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote:
>>Not sure that's really fair Tor. I think (predominately) trad climbers
>>generally give out far fewer stars than sport climbers.
>
>The numbers don't seem to depend that much on stars. In any case, my point
>wasn't how few starred trad climbs there are in NSW compared to sport climbs.
>It was that compared to VIC, the accessibility/compactness/number of trad
>climbs is pretty small.
>
>Actually there are almost no three starred low-grade (<15) sport routes
>in NSW, but climbers quickly progress to being able to climb much harder
>(sport) routes, of which there are many. Essentially there is an easy progression
>into sport climbing in NSW via gyms, but getting into trad climbing is
>a lot more difficult and less fun here than it is in VIC.
>
>Where in ACT/NSW can I, a beginner trad leader, go and climb 10 fun pitches
>of easy trad on good rock? Preferably multi-pitch.

Mt Boyce, Mt York and Narrowneck?

I reckon sport routes do get a few many stars lobbed around as well. I've done some pretty unmemorable sport routes with no shortage of stars. Maybe because my range of climbing to compare routes to is rather more extensive than most sport crags, I'm a little fussy. But I do like steep, juggy and sustained sport routes. And long pitches. Hence my general fondness for the RRG.
>
>> (and how's the shoulder??)
>
>Slowly slowly :( Maybe in a couple of months it'll be good enough to climb
>a bit.
>

Really, still no climbing? Didn't you have your's done before mine? I've been doing easy climbs since October and mine's going great. If I hadn't been stupidly ill for the last 6 weeks, i'd be climbing moderately hard again, but even so, no dramas with 15s. But I do live in one of the best places in the world for gentle climbing rehab.

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