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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 36
Author
Scariest fall ever?
One Day Hero
10/10/2012
10:25:38 PM
This is like some kind of physics special olympics.

Miguel75
10/10/2012
10:42:27 PM
On 10/10/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>Hi Kieran. Tx. I got it sorted now. I'd always understood what you and
>M9 had said to be true, but I've misunderstood/misinterprted the research
>findings. And its not the sort of stuff that gets discussed around the
>fire. I missed the at the "at the runner" part, and mentally substituted
>"at the anchor". Sorted. Well, after 33 years, nothing much has changed
>here except my reading comprehension.
>
>NOT EDITED

See, this is what it's all about; working together as a community to help each other better our understanding of playing on rocks...

Go team Chocky:)
patto
10/10/2012
11:54:22 PM
I don't know what fancy "real world" tricks the Chris Semmel used but his conclusions of ~5kN for factor 2 falls seem amazingly dubious.

Rope manufactures test their ropes with 80kg and a fall factor of 1.77. Typcial forces for NEW single ropes are in the order of 7-9kN.

Of course in the real world this force may be slightly reduced to energy absorbed by the crushing of your spleen or other internal organs. Your belayer may also assist with allowing energy to be rapidly dissipated into his hands.

Not a pleasant experience for those involved.
patto
11/10/2012
8:55:00 AM
On 11/10/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>On 10/10/2012 patto wrote:
>>I don't know what fancy "real world" tricks the Chris Semmel used but
>his
>>conclusions of ~5kN for factor 2 falls seem amazingly dubious.
>
>Hey patto. Go to http://www.outdoorlink.org/research-papers and see the
>paper on belaying/anchors third last paper. Lots of evidence-based stuff.
>This was the evidence that supported the CMG belaying recommendations for
>guides that stirred some discussion here a few months back.

Thanks for the link. But a bit of googling based on your reference had already got me there. There was no explanation of the methodology or test results, there was simply a reference to Chris Semmel and his powerpoint slide summary.

I am going to stick with the test results of rope manufactures as a base line for the forces in a non slip belay scenario. Like in said in the real world some energy can be absorbed by the crushing of your body and the slipping of the belay. Neither of which are desirable.

E. Wells
11/10/2012
9:19:20 AM
wow, what a scary fall.
Will_P
11/10/2012
10:24:03 AM
On 10/10/2012 Cliff D wrote:
'I wouldn't be more concerned about FF2 or FF2+ falls, than FF.4 falls on gear.'

Dude, you are truly fearless. But not in a good way...

Duang Daunk
11/10/2012
11:23:10 AM
On 11/10/2012 patto wrote:
>I am going to stick with the test results of rope manufactures as a base
>line for the forces in a non slip belay scenario. Like in said in the
>real world some energy can be absorbed by the crushing of your body and
>the slipping of the belay. Neither of which are desirable.

I am quite happy to have rope slippage at belay if I am ever going to be caught in a fall.
Look at manufacturer test results for atc type devices and you will find they are designed to do it.

Climboholic
11/10/2012
11:50:49 AM
On 10/10/2012 pecheur wrote:
>
>Is Cliff D a troll? I'm beginning to wonder.

I don't think so.
hero
11/10/2012
12:12:08 PM
Warwick Baird, Bluff Mountain?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/10/2012
1:53:16 PM
On 10/10/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>I tried the search engine... no luck getting it to work. This question
>is not important anyways, I can't imagine that it influences a great deal
>about how you choose to climb. Or maybe I've gotten it wrong all this time.
>
I am glad you now have the FF thing sorted.

The question was important, as these things can be difficult to gain an appreciation of if only ever dealing with them theoretically.

My climbing is influenced a great deal by having an appreciation for FF, gear security, and belay setup, while others may never 'get it' or can't be bothered, hopefully sticking to bouldering genres of the game, where they are less likely to end up as a sad statistic because of lack of knowledge!



Post edit;
I have gained another appreciation too, in that ODH and others showed considerable restraint (in positive sense), in helping you sort it out!
;-)
~> and to get the thread back on track, I find it amazing that people survive some of the things they do given the forces/FF's/etc they generate in their mishaps!
patto
11/10/2012
2:08:33 PM
On 11/10/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>
>That's weird, cause when I tried the link just now it goes directly to
>the papers. And it describes the methodology, etc.
>

The paper linked is by Mark Houston and it does not describe the methodology and test results. There is brief descriptions of the tests but nothing about how the results were obtained.

Muki
11/10/2012
6:42:34 PM
To the OP, Frog buttress, off plate tectonics at the top piton too pumped to clip 6 m out from a bolt
>(I didn't know that the first piton after the bolt had fallen out, it protects the crux)
I was about 20 m up so was expecting 12 m fall plus stretch, but my belayer was short and skinny,
> not tied down.
I had climbed up onto a 10 m piller to start the climb using a cam that I removed once I'd clipped the first of the two bolts to get rid of the drag.
I pulled him almost up to the first bolt when I fell.

shortman
11/10/2012
7:04:02 PM
Cool Muki!
Tastrad
12/10/2012
9:20:18 AM
On 9/10/2012 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
>That's a massive winger.
>
>Mental Jim told me he was belaying someone going for a ground up first
>ascent at Ben Lomond. On the second pitch the guy ran out 30m with no gear,
>as it was a closed corner. Fell the full 60m+stretch. Pulled up a few meters
>off the deck.
>
>Mental Jim shaid he the leader went past the belay quite quickly.

I witnessed that fall from the route beside it. Niels from USA going ground up on Heimdall Crag at Africa. On 2nd pitch a hold broke, he ripped 8 pieces on the pitch and went cartwheeling upside down past the belayer (Crazy John). He fell at least 50m and pulled up 15m off the deck. 5m from the belay the rope snagged behind a flake and shredded a 3m section of the rope. I think this is what held the fall - there was one more piece between the flake and the belayer, which probably would have ripped as well and factor 2 onto John's belay which he said was marginal. The rope getting caught on the flake probably averted 2 fatalities.

Bob McMahon fell 30m off the Pavilion at Ben Lomond in 1974 with no harness and just a manilla rope around the waist - factor 2 onto his belayer and the fall was held because the rope wrapped around the belayers leg and snapped his femur. Bob hanging in space below the belayer swung into the cliff (off the guys broken leg), climbed to the top with broken hand and broken ribs belayed by a third fellow. The third guy went for help, brought back a logger several hours later, who hauled the injured climber up the cliff then pissed off. The police seach and rescue got them all down about midnight.
crazyjohn
12/10/2012
10:59:37 AM
On 9/10/2012 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
>That's a massive winger.
>
>Mental Jim told me he was belaying someone going for a ground up first
>ascent at Ben Lomond. On the second pitch the guy ran out 30m with no gear,
>as it was a closed corner. Fell the full 60m+stretch. Pulled up a few meters
>off the deck.
>
>Mental Jim shaid he the leader went past the belay quite quickly.

Well Locky it was me, not mental Jim, whoever that is who told the story.... ;)

Scott Deputy is a good climber. He works on YOSAR with Niels, the guy who took the 50 meter fall climbing at Ben Lommond. Just to clarify a few things,

1. Niels had a lot of gear. Like 7 or 8 pieces. Each of these held long enough to pull me into the cliff so I ended up dry humping the cliff until he eventually ripped out all but one piece of gear. His fall was arrested mostly by being trapped behind a flake. This ended up stripping about 3 meters of sheath. The story with pics is here:
http://cjclimbs.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/american-tourist-bunjee-jumps-remote.html

2. The length of the fall is not that important. What you hit at the end of the fall is very important. For example, last week I belayed young Wiz from NZ on his flash of Serpentine (both pitches). On his victory jump I flaked out about 15 meters of rope. So he fell like 30 meters. Even though it was a big fall I still gave a little bounce when the rope went tight. He was totally fine.

A couple days later I sent Rage and took the same jump, but there was not alot of rope out (maybe 5 meters), the line is more direct so less friction, I may have jumped further from the cliff creating more of an arc and contributing to a greater swing, my belayer was heavier than I am... Anyway, I came smashing into the cliff and bashed up my wrist. In this case, a bigger fall would have been way safer.

I belayed a friend, Merry on Venom at Frog. He only had one number 5 friend which only fits at the bottom of the OW. We thought it was easy so didnt really think about the runout. As luck would have it his hand seized up on the finger crack at the top of the climb! With no gear in, it was just a matter of time until he pumped out and plummeted. So I got ready to take in rope and prepared to jump off the ledge. And after a few agonizing minutes, thats what I did when he fell. I must have taken in two and a half armfuls of slack then jumped off. He stopped 3 meters off the deck. In the madness of the fall, I somehow took in and locked off the live rope as well and that twanged through my fingers when he fell so I had a bung hand for awhile but otherwise it was ok.

and am I such a pariah that my name is unmentionable? ;)
cj

Duang Daunk
12/10/2012
11:14:07 AM
On 12/10/2012 crazyjohn wrote:
>On 9/10/2012 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
>>That's a massive winger.
>>
>>Mental Jim told me he was belaying
>
>and am I such a pariah that my name is unmentionable? ;)
>cj
>

i wouldnt worry to much about hot foot jams humur mental jim as it passes the chuckstoners posting test .

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 36
There are 36 messages in this topic.

 

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