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Rings out 'return of the bolt cutter gang' Mt Yuck


Macciza

10-Aug-2012
12:38:25 AM

On 9/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>Kuu was talking hypothetical about an 'unknown' crag wasn't he?....
Hypothetically, yes - I just meant that it should be obvious that people are climbing there and if they obviously aren't bolting stuff so maybe they should find out the details, that's all . . .

>
>Lol like McCarthy he to thought he was right and everyone wrong

Hmm - I do think I am right but that is based on generally accepted pre-established climbing ethics, not just my own.
My own personal beliefs are probably even more bizarre, like that every 'pleasure/spurt climbing' crag should have an obligatory trad route . . .
Or that some bolted climbs should be able to be 'freed' and have the artificial protection (rungs) removed and become 'real free climbs', like freeing any 'aid' . .
Well saying that it only a minor problem simply allows it to continue as it has for quite some time now, so exaggeration helps make the point.
And I certainly do think there are two sides in this debate - hence the us against them bit is valid I think - whether it be sport/trad, pleasure/adventure, bold/fun,etc.

>If you feel so strongly about the bolts..just fukin chop em..

They are certainly going to be chopped - I am just hoping that the person who did the deed will fix it themselves, though that seems unlikely.
There are several people prepared to do the needed work - it is just a matter of who gets there first I guess.
Not necessarily trying to garner support, as I believe the majority of climbers would support the move but are unprepared to vocalise that support

Something has to be done - a line needs to be drawn .
We didn't worry when they retro'd Shipley because there was York ,
And then we didn't worry again when they retro'd parts of York because there was Piddo,
And then we didn't worry enough when they retro'd parts of Piddo cause there was the County,
We really should have worried a lot more when they started retroing The County, ( I could have sworn they said they would leave it alone)

Soon we won't need to worry because it will all be retro-ringed, including the trad-lines, (with the 'you don't have to clip them' illogic)
and there won't be anyone with the ethics, skills or commitment to see climbing any other way then an extension of the indoor experience.

citationx

10-Aug-2012
6:51:45 AM

On 10/08/2012 Macciza wrote:
>On 9/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>Hmm - I do think I am right but that is based on generally accepted pre-established
>climbing ethics, not just my own.

Here's a golden one. A mass generalisation based on the voice of 9 people in the sport who just happen to be particularly vocal on some forum on the intertubes. You realise that outspoken people are somewhat drawn to the internet by default, and that chockstone represents a very small portion of the climbing community, right?


The good Dr

10-Aug-2012
7:16:54 AM

On 10/08/2012 citationx wrote:
>On 10/08/2012 Macciza wrote:
>>On 9/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>>Hmm - I do think I am right but that is based on generally accepted pre-established
>>climbing ethics, not just my own.
>
>Here's a golden one. A mass generalisation based on the voice of 9 people
>in the sport who just happen to be particularly vocal on some forum on
>the intertubes. You realise that outspoken people are somewhat drawn to
>the internet by default, and that chockstone represents a very small portion
>of the climbing community, right?

Usually a case of malignant narcissism brought on during childhood.


rodw

10-Aug-2012
7:22:38 AM

On 10/08/2012 Macciza wrote:
>On 9/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>>Kuu was talking hypothetical about an 'unknown' crag wasn't he?....
>Hypothetically, yes - I just meant that it should be obvious that people
>are climbing there and if they obviously aren't bolting stuff so maybe
>they should find out the details, that's all . . .

Ehh???... isn't that the point of trad leave no footprints..so where does the obvious come in?

Doesn't really matter, I come to the decision that your Fundamentalist anti bolter and like all fundamentalists, logic just doesn't come into it...its my way or the highway etc.

pecheur

10-Aug-2012
7:35:23 AM

On 10/08/2012 rodw wrote:

>Doesn't really matter, I come to the decision that your Fundamentalist
>anti bolter and like all fundamentalists, logic just doesn't come into
>it...its my way or the highway etc.
>
Whilst I agree that Macca is a fundamentalist, sometime, somewhere a line has to be drawn, the question is where.

If not we'll have morons bolting Watchtower crack because it's a great / striking line but they don't want to invest in / make friends with someone with / learn to use a big cam. We've already had the people that put lower offs on Kachoong ...

The "you don't have to clip it" argument is rubbish as stated by someone before, by extension you could bolt everything, "oh you don't have to clip it, you can still use your trad pro in in the crack right next door to the bolt" ...


rodw

10-Aug-2012
7:51:42 AM

But EVERYTHING is not being bolted...it is isolated cases in the scheme of all things climbing...Macca knows who's doing it and nothing stopping him from chopping said bolts anyway.....its the rhetoric that climbing's is doomed that I'm bemused about and why I liken his crusade to that of a fundamentalist.

I'm not arguing that bolts need to be added or chopped etc...I'm just saying stop the alarmist crap.


The good Dr

10-Aug-2012
7:58:10 AM

On 10/08/2012 pecheur wrote:
>On 10/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>

>If not we'll have morons bolting Watchtower crack

It was bolted in the 60's! The bolts are still there.

pecheur

10-Aug-2012
8:17:02 AM

On 10/08/2012 The good Dr wrote:
>On 10/08/2012 pecheur wrote:
>>On 10/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>>
>
>>If not we'll have morons bolting Watchtower crack
>
>It was bolted in the 60's! The bolts are still there.

Sorry, I missed a "grid" in there ...


nmonteith

10-Aug-2012
8:36:56 AM

On 9/08/2012 Macciza wrote:
>Personally I am finding this 'new spurt ethic' scenario like pre WWII
>Germany, with the gyms indoctrinating 'Spurt Youth' to be brainwashed into
>the superiority of the 'MasterSpurt'; that rungs are the supreme protection
>and that anything else should not be tolerated. Spurt Climbing is the only
>true safe climbing and anything else is intrinsically evil, and the reason
>why you can't get up your uber-hard ring-fests is all due to the existence
>of Trads.

Yay - a Nazi reference! Does that mean we can lock this topic now?


Macciza

10-Aug-2012
8:52:49 AM

FFS

cit : Your outspoken comment fits that minor percentage, you speak of . .
If you are not aware of accepted ethics and practice - try reading some.
Maybe start with the UIAA stuff mentioned earlier in this thread
Please keep your so obviously uninformed opinions up yourself

tgd: I think that is an overly harsh appraisal of shitx
It is more likely PCD brought on due to 'pleasure' climbing . . .

rudw: Eeh? Never heard 'that' definition, ever . . . Are you serious?
I don't need to project any particular issue on you; you're simply not being logical

pech: I don't think I am a Fundamentalist, yet fundamentally I am right . . . Principled, ethical, moralist maybe
Every thing else you said is pretty much on the money . . .

rudw: When did I say EVERYTHING? But OK name an established BM crag that has not been retro'd, gridded,
Yes I know who has done this and I hope they own up and remove the bolts themselves,
rather than trying to dictate how they should be removed? I mean seriously,
Read the above docs, if you can't work it out yourself; can't you see that climbing is going LCD due to gymbies . .
It certainly seems like you support the retroing at York - or it seems you aren't prepared to take a stand either way???

and re: WC or Araps in general - Hmm, there have been complaints down there about new bolts, lower offs, retroing etc

If you sheeple (pech excluded) represent modern climbing 'reason', then clearly it is doomed . . .


Macciza

10-Aug-2012
9:02:12 AM

On 10/08/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>Yay - a Nazi reference! Does that mean we can lock this topic now?

Are you serious? No mention of 'em whatsoever!
I think you are reading too much into it . . .

It's just para-phrased from the 'I Don't Climb Wigglies Pleasure-Spurt Hand book'


rodw

10-Aug-2012
9:20:16 AM

>It certainly seems like you support the retroing at York - or it seems
>you aren't prepared to take a stand either way???

So if I'm not as fanatical as you I support it?..once again your logic is impeccable...keep raving Mocca, at least I get a giggle during my work day.


Macciza

10-Aug-2012
9:35:04 AM

On 10/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>So if I'm not as fanatical as you I support it?..once again your logic
>is impeccable...keep raving Mocca, at least I get a giggle during my work
>day.

No - you don't it oppose , you appear to support it . . . What can't you understand about that? Use some logic . . .

anthonycuskelly

10-Aug-2012
9:48:05 AM

Err... there was a "pre-WWII Germany" in there, that's good enough.

ON TOPIC: I haven't done a single climb (other than at KP) that I was aware of as having been retroed. I can't comment on the lines Macca's talking about because I've never seen (let alone done) them. I don't know about NSW, but nearly everyone I know who leads sport also leads trad, so maybe it is just a case of a few morons. But if any trad line that I've previously done (as a certified, card-carrying sook who stays away from runouts let alone dangerous ones) gets retroed, I'm going to start chopping.


rodw

10-Aug-2012
9:59:23 AM

re read the original thread Macca, I'm pretty sure I said somewhere I do not support retroing...I'm just not as rabid as you are and I do not see the current levels of retroing to indicate the beginning of the end of climbing as we know it..I view them as very isolated cases on a few routes, that can be dealt with on a case by case basis that is all........and TBH if I was as passionate about this issue is you are I certainly wouldn't be trying to spray in a forum about it for whatever your agenda is...Id just chop away.

Im now bowing out of this thread as its all pretty pointless.


Climboholic

10-Aug-2012
10:33:31 AM

rodw: Your ambivalence does nothing to discourage these "isolated incidents". At least Macciza's "fundamentalism" is sending a message to any would-be retroer that their crap will not be tolerated.

Macciza is contributing more to climbing than any retro-bolter who justifies their egotistical endeavour as "giving back to the climbing community".

uwhp510

10-Aug-2012
11:12:53 AM

On 10/08/2012 rodw wrote:
>But EVERYTHING is not being bolted...

Yes it is. Not today or tomorrow or next week, but its heading that way.

Maybe you're right and we should put off the alarmist crap for a few more years. If so, when do you reckon we should start it up again?


Macciza

10-Aug-2012
1:14:30 PM

As I asked earlier . . .

Can anyone name an established Blueies crag that has not been retro-ringed?

Or a new crag that does not have rungs near possible gear placements?

And the BIG question, that really needs to be answered . .

Would the p*****s responsible for the retroing of RTS please step up?
Rather then have your minions offering up your pathetic excuses . . .
I suspect you know what you have done is fundamentally wrong,
If you really believed in your atrocity, surely you can take responsibility.

I've heard that you expect us to remove them to your specifications! Are you serious?
If I remove them, I will cut them off flush to rock, leaving them visible as a warning,
I'd suggest you should go fix it yourself if you don't like that . . .
And realise that is your actions that have created the whole damn mess . . .


climbau

10-Aug-2012
1:33:30 PM

On 10/08/2012 Macciza wrote:

>Can anyone name an established Blueies crag that has not been retro-ringed?

Hartley Heights?
Lockley's Pylon?
Victoria Falls?
I have not been to these crags in a long time, so hopefully I am right. Other than that, you would be right Macciza.

widewetandslippery

10-Aug-2012
1:34:05 PM

my 2 cents.

Putting more bolts in an established route isn't needed. Especially on a 20-30m slab in the blueys. Its not like the area is short of 20-30m slabs.

Fixing up dumb bolting, especially from the era of the hand drill where dumb bolts got left in dumb spots because it was all to hard to move them can be justified.

Return of the toecutter gang in my opinion was a failed sport route. Replacing bolt for bolt and ring lower offs no biggy.

Rage This Season, the name gives it away. It was put up purposely in a specific way at a certain time. It wasn't a sport route and it wasn't meant to convieniant by the first ascentionist.

I do grid bolt at crags I go and find. There are plenty out there. Good ones can be hard to find but as we are talking about Mt York that point is null.

I don't quite get the anti ring debate as I feel that if you are going to be leaving fixed protection it should be the best fixed protection but if an established route is rebolted (not retrobolted) as long it is in a better state than it was previously fair play.

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